3 Issues with B/W negatives after developing

perrodelsur · Jan 7, 2021

Hello! Ive searched online and read the sticky post regarding development, but I still can identify and get rid of 3 major issues with my developing process in B&W,
I feel that I have color developing under control so Im not really sure why Im messing up B&W.
Process:
30 sec constant agitation (1st), then 10 every minute for 10 seconds
24 C`

1st problem:
Random straight lines across negative. I use the same camera to shoot color and I dont have this issue. I dont think its a lightleak.

2rd problem
Vertical wobbly water (?) stains

3rd problem:
- Dirty sprocket holes. Ive notices that after reusing the solution its getting increasingly dirty (after the 5th time)

I would greatly appreciate some ideas or feedback from your experience!

Donald Qualls · Jan 7, 2021

Those crosswise stripes aren't light leaks -- they're lower density (light on the negative, dark on the print), suggesting they're a development issue. Bromide drag can do that. You could also see it from a horizontally traveling focal plane shutter that has a speed control issue (they'd be present in the color negs, too, but likely less visible).. The wobbly stains are probably flow marks from drying -- rewashing the negatives in distilled water and using only the correct amount of wetting agent before hanging will resolve that. The "dirty" edges are incompletely fixed, probably because your fixer volume is dropping off after reusing the solution several times.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2021

Are these problems all apparent on the same film and if so on how many of the negatives?. Sounds like a bit of an imposition but it may save time in the long run if you were to give us more details about your whole process. The alternative is that each of us and we are legion will fire a sentence of a possible cause which you then eliminate by a quick reply. This can often muddy the waters and actually slow down the objective which is finding a cause and a solution

All I can say as of now is that your agitation regime suggests to me that bromide drag can be eliminated, unless others can state that 30 secs at the start and then the Ilford 10 secs for every minute can somehow result in bromide drag

Thanks

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 7, 2021

Looks like bromide drag. Try 5 sec agitation every 30sec.

grain elevator · Jan 7, 2021

1. Only one or two lines per neg, and always in the same place: looks like an unevenly running horizontal shutter to me. Confirmation would be if this isn't visible or much less when you use a slow shutter speed (or different camera). Would be falsified if the camera doesn't have a horizontal fp (Leica type) shutter.
2. Probably need to work out something with your final wash. For me, only demin water AND wetting agent works. Could maybe also result from no agitation during fixing?
3. Light leak and/or effect of the reel blocking fixer from the film. It's just the sprocket area...

John Wiegerink · Jan 7, 2021

Do you use the same system/tanks for doing color? Is it a Jobo type roller setup? If yes, then I'd agree with bromide drag.

DeletedAcct1 · Jan 7, 2021

perrodelsur said:
Hello! Ive searched online and read the sticky post regarding development, but I still can identify and get rid of 3 major issues with my developing process in B&W,
I feel that I have color developing under control so Im not really sure why Im messing up B&W.
Process:
30 sec constant agitation (1st), then 10 every minute for 10 seconds
24 C`

1st problem:
Random straight lines across negative. I use the same camera to shoot color and I dont have this issue. I dont think its a lightleak.
View attachment 263172 View attachment 263171
View attachment 263174 View attachment 263173

2rd problem
Vertical wobbly water (?) stains
View attachment 263175 View attachment 263176

3rd problem:
- Dirty sprocket holes. Ive notices that after reusing the solution its getting increasingly dirty (after the 5th time)
View attachment 263169

I would greatly appreciate some ideas or feedback from your experience!

The 3rd problem depends on the film sticking to the reel tank grooves and can be prevented during fixing. this way: after having fixed your film with the tank lid closed, for half the required time, minimum 2 minutes, open the lid and remove the cog, then turn upside down the reel in the fixer for the other half, agitating sporadically.

koraks · Jan 7, 2021

#1 looks more shutter related than a development artifact to me. But it's hard to tell.
#2 is most likely indeed water runoff, lack of use or improper use of a wetting agent or something along those lines.
#3 is usually caused by the emulsion of the film remaining in contact with the reels during processing. I wouldn't worry about it too much. It looks too sharply defined to be due to insufficient fixer volume.

Another issue is the dark marks between the sprocket holes, which suggests excessive pressure on the film during transportation. I'd have a close look at this camera and see if it needs some cleaning or even repair.

perrodelsur · Jan 8, 2021

Thank you very much! Indeed I use the same equipment as for color negatives (same camera, tank, water, etc), so it should rule out equiment issues. As for the chemicals Im using Ilpford monobath Df96 and following the instructions to the letter, I even different temperatures (+2C) without visible differences on the rolls.

1. In one of the pictures I was trying to shoot with a lower shutter speed (I rarely use this setting) due to low light,
but the picture of the cig butts the shutter was at normal speed and no color roll that I have develop shows this. Im more inclined to think its a developing issue.

2. Ill put the negatives through the solution for 1 min and then rewash to see if I can improve the results. From what I understand this should fix the watery lines and the sprocket marks (fixer).

Also Ill develop some rolls this weekend and increase the agitation to:
NewLooks like bromide drag. Try 5 sec agitation every 30sec.

Ill report back with the results!

removed account4 · Jan 8, 2021

sorry to ask this, when was the last time your camera had a CLA ( clean / lubricate / adjust ) / tune up ?
AND
when you process your film do you fill the whole tank up with fluid or do you use the minimum amount of chemistry to cover the reels ? I've seen problems with development that isn't equipment or technique related but sometimes by using too little chemistry. not really sure why people use less chemistry since it causes problems ... I'd also avoid using developer more than 1-shot if you are re-using it that can also cause troubles.

good luck figuring out your development issues ( nice photos btw! )!
John

pentaxuser · Jan 8, 2021

John Wiegerink said:
Is it a Jobo type roller setup? If yes, then I'd agree with bromide drag.

What's the link between a Jobo type roller setup and bromide drag? I ask this as I have a Jobo processor which is constant agitation and changes every 3 secs and I had always assumed that bromide drag is lack of agitation?

Thanks

pentaxuser

koraks · Jan 8, 2021

pentaxuser said:
What's the link between a Jobo type roller setup and bromide drag?

Direction. Longitudinal stripes would not likely be caused by manual development, which generally has the film 'standing on its side' most of the time.
But I agree with you that bromide drag is not likely when a rotation machine is used.

MattKing · Jan 8, 2021

perrodelsur said:
As for the chemicals Im using Ilpford monobath Df96

I think this may be the source of the problem.

Donald Qualls · Jan 9, 2021

perrodelsur said:
Ilpford monobath Df96

Pretty sure Ilford doesn't sell a monobath, never mind one with Cinestill's product name.

If you're using Df96, especially if you've already processed several rolls in the quart/liter of solution, bromide drag is a high possibility. One good solution is to choose a higher temp, higher agitation combination to give the same level of development (if you're using 1 minute agitation, up the temp a couple degrees according to the chart and agitate every 30 seconds, for instance, or jump from 30 seconds to continuous). However, I would have expected that to give a tapered shadow from each and every sprocket hole on the edge of the film that was uppermost in the tank; a single stripe per frame that doesn't cross into the rebate is a shutter hesitation. If it hasn't shown in past color negatives, it may be a new problem; this kind of thing can appear due to film chips (produced by the sprocket problems that cause the small dark marks near the sprocket holes) getting into the shutter tracks -- and as such, may also come and go as the film chips move around during operation of the camera, film changes, etc. A careful vacuuming around the film gate with the shutter held open on B may help this, but as others have suggested, it's probably a good idea to get the shutter cleaned and adjusted.

perrodelsur · Jan 10, 2021

Hello!
I just put the negatives through a second bath (its Cinestill sorry, not Ilphord) and hte black spots did clear a bit,
the water stains did not but Ill try to increase agitation to 10secs every half minute and increase a bit the time for the next time.

Regarding the straight vertical lines, it does seem to be a shutter problem....
Actually the film with the lines its from a small camera that I use sometimes for hikes, Ill give it a clean to see if I achive any difference (theres not much tech service where I live).

its an old Halina Vision, if you guys have any suggestions Ill be happy to try them, otherwise Ill report back to share results as soon as I develop another roll from this camera.

Thank you!

grain elevator · Jan 11, 2021

I think the Halina has some sort of central shutter. That can't cause lines. Are you sure of the camera? I would have guessed internal reflections if the stripes were brighter, but they're dark; not sure if it's likely that light was reflected everywhere except these thin lines.
Water stains can be wiped off the back of the film with a wet tissue IME. If these can't, it's probably something else. Maybe a structure like this can develop if the monobath is poured out and the film not immediately rinsed, so that what's left on the film can develop/fix further? Although fixing should theoretically be completed when you pour it out...
You haven't replied to the question whether you used rotation agitation. That would certainly explain it, if you rotate but pause in between - intermittent agitation is only possible if the film is always immersed in the liquids.

Auer · Jan 11, 2021

perrodelsur said:
Hello!
I just put the negatives through a second bath (its Cinestill sorry, not Ilphord) and hte black spots did clear a bit,
the water stains did not but Ill try to increase agitation to 10secs every half minute and increase a bit the time for the next time.

Are you using a Lab-Box?
If so, the agitation and washing methods mentioned in the manual need to be followed as opposed to the DF96 directions.

ced · Jan 11, 2021

Maybe your camera has turned into a Holga. Consider upgrading to another device. Those fiddly problems are not worth having around the hobby.
Hope you find a solution that you can devote to more pics.

perrodelsur · Jan 11, 2021

Hello again,

I really appreciate all the replies! Ill try to give more details of the process and the pictures to see if that shines more light into the issues.
I have written down all the suggestions for the next batch, Ill detail them below as well to leave record of them.

Process
Df96 Cinestill
Regular patterson tank (2 roll)
First 30seconds constant agitation, after that 10 seconds every minute
I completly cover the films with the liquids
I use rotation stick
Both rolls that appear to show this issue were the last ones of the batch,
developed simultaneously on the same tank (2rolls)
Cameras (detailed in each photo)

Issues:
0. Dirty or dark stains on sprocket holes. This should be fixed increasing agitation to 5 seconds every half minute according to @Donald and @Andrew

1. Watery stains - This I should be able to fix since I bought wetting agent (Kodak) after @Donald and @koraks suggestion.
Ill dilute it in distilled water and should be able to reuse it.
Canon AE1

2. Vertical lines,
No idea whats happening here.
Canon AE1 Halina

3. Horizontal lines and Sprocket halo (not sure if this has another name, its like light shinning upwards). Post doesnt let me
No idea whats happening here.
Canon AE1

As I mentioned above, none of this issues are present with film used AFTER these B&W negatives:
Canon AE1

Thank you again for your attention and interest!

MattKing · Jan 11, 2021

perrodelsur said:
Ill dilute it in distilled water and should be able to reuse it.

Be cautious with re-using working strength Photo-flo.
It provides an excellent environment for mould growth - I discard it after a day or so of use.
You will use so little (it is diluted 5 ml per litre) that it won't be expensive.

Huub · Jan 12, 2021

When it comes to the issue you describe as issue # 0 i would not bother too much as long as it doesn't intrude into the image area. It is probably caused bij the emulsion coming into contact with the reels and quite a few people using Paterson tanks and reels will run into this every now and then.

The watery stains you describe as issue #1 could also be caused by using the rotaion stick. Try to do inversion development next time and check what happens, especially when using the wetting agent with distilled water doesn't solve the problem.

When it comes to issue #2 i have no clue, but could it be a problem related to your camera, for instance a slight lght leak somewhere in the backdoor seals?

Issue #4 is a clear sign of bromide drag. Switching to inversion development will probably solve this as well.

Jonno85uk · Jan 12, 2021

perrodelsur said:
I use rotation stick

Next time, try inversions.

perrodelsur · Jan 12, 2021

Huub said:
When it comes to issue #2 i have no clue, but could it be a problem related to your camera, for instance a slight lght leak somewhere in the backdoor seals?

This would be unlikely since it happened in 2 separate rolls from two separate cameras (Halina and CanonAE1). Both rolls were developed simultaneously on the same batch, so issue is probably on development. Plus lines are darker that the picture, light leak would be clearer than the picture right?

For the rest of the issues Ill give inversions a try and report back w/ results. + not reusing the photo flo as Matt said.
I usually avoid this since its messy with my current tank... so ill have to check if I invest in a better one (open to suggestions here as well)

koraks · Jan 12, 2021

Yes, good thinking. I agree they can't be light leaks. It's odd because it's hard to think of a development fault that would cause this kind of issue.

grain elevator · Jan 12, 2021

perrodelsur said:
For the rest of the issues Ill give inversions a try and report back w/ results. + not reusing the photo flo as Matt said.
I usually avoid this since its messy with my current tank... so ill have to check if I invest in a better one (open to suggestions here as well)

Are you aware of "burping" the lid on the Paterson tank? When it's almost closed, push down on the lid to create a bit of a vacuum inside, then fully close the lid. Less to no leaking that way.
Since closing the lid takes a while, I've found it best to use the stick for the initial agitation, then use the time without agitation to put the lid on.

3 Issues with B/W negatives after developing

perrodelsur

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3 Issues with B/W negatives after developing

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