Use the same lens at the same f-stop, one FF & one APS
...but that's comparing a 60mm focal length to a 100mm focal length. The bokeh and DoF differences would have been there even if both photos were made with the same camera. Thus, the observed bokeh and DoF results are completely independent of the camera. It is not the APS-C camera that has more DoF; it is the lens used. It is very misleading/confusing/wrong to say, "the APS-C camera will have greater DoF". It is not the camera. It is the lens.
Yeah. But in practice, to get the same shot and ultimately the same print, people will use a shorter lens on the APS-C camera to get the same angle of view.
You're technically right, but in practice, people don't photograph that way, and will experience a smaller DoF on a larger sensor. Unless the photographer is a physicist, perhaps.
Also, how often had this particular horse been beaten to a pulp over the past 20 years or so? I mean, have at it, but this is the usefulness of the acid stop bath all over again.
Heck it's been beaten to death and @wiltw posted a very simple comparison that should have closed out the argument for good.
....
@BradS if you want us to split off the DoF discussion from your thread, just hit the 'report' button and we'll untangle it. If you want it to stay where it is, that's also fine by me.
You're technically right, but in practice, people don't photograph that way, and will experience a smaller DoF on a larger sensor. Unless the photographer is a physicist, perhaps.
I'm good with the discussion staying here. It all relates to understanding the pros and cons of APS-C. Thank you for offering though.
I'm good with the discussion staying here. It all relates to understanding the pros and cons of APS-C.
... I realized most people have no clue what they're talking about.
The blurred background is what sells.
It may be that people have a clue but they fail to recognize and clearly articulate their assumptions, and they are imprecise in their use of language.
In discussions of technical matters this is hazardous at best.
EDIT: of course, the beauty of the empirical examples presented by @Cholentpot and @wiltw is that they make the assumptions clear - even if left implicit.
Ah, the crux of it. If it is the blur that sells, I am surprised you are not shooting medium format digital.
...but that's comparing a 60mm focal length to a 100mm focal length. The bokeh and DoF differences would have been there even if both photos were made with the same camera. Thus, the observed bokeh and DoF results are completely independent of the camera. It is not the APS-C camera that has more DoF; it is the lens used. It is very misleading/confusing/wrong to say, "the APS-C camera will have greater DoF". It is not the camera. It is the lens.
If you consider 48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame...if both were 'same generation' circuits, the 48 MP APS-C would be far noisier than 24MP FF...each APS-C pixel would be only 18.2% of the area of the FF pixel, so far inferior S/N ratio resulting in more visible noise in the APS-C image!Same with pixels, so:
"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".
And maybe PRICE!!!
...
A young man who started shooting film in 2021 wants to move into digital. He's used to shooting on say, a Nikon F3 with a 50 1.8, he's trained his eye to that focal length and knows it well. On advice and budget he gets an APS-C Nikon DSLR and a 35mm 1.8 because he's been assured that it's the same as shooting 50mm on film. After struggling to get his look for months he wanders into a camera store and on a whim picks up a full frame Nikon body and puts a 50mm 1.8 on it. Our intrepid friend is quite surprised to find his old setup works perfect. He may have thought something was just intrinsically wrong with digital when in fact a 35mm lens will look like 35mm and a 50mm will look like 50mm no matter what sensor you put it on!
I went through this myself. I was told up and down and people swore that I just need to use a wider lens to match my preference when using a crop sensor. The day my pre-owned Canon 6D came in the mail and I put that plastic fantastic 50 1.8 on it I realized most people have no clue what they're talking about.
There's nothing wrong with APS-C but you'll get an APS-C look when using an APS-C camera. You will get a more classic photographic look when using full frame.
Lemme tell you a story of a feisty (some might say cantankerous) gentleman who spent 30 years in the cube farm, with coffee stained carpet under foot, and fluorescent lighting overhead, and a computer keyboard at hand. He started doing photography (he abhors the gun metaphor) in the early 1970's and has mainly used 35mm and 4x5. He was staunchly and adamantly a film user until late 2021 when the lack of a darkroom, the high cost of color film, and the difficult and expensive logistics associated with having it processed and printed coaxed him to consider trying digital. He had the singular good fortune to retire four years ago at age 55 and now lives a simple life on a ridiculously small income in a ramshackle old house in the hinterlands of California and quite content to drink coffee, hike in the mountains, eat cinnamon rolls, be humbled and awed by nature, visit friends and family, study literature, and film, and history, take an occasional road trip, go to an opera or a museum of fine art or natural history once in a while ... and, maybe, one day, write a screen play. At this point in his life, photography is mostly about capturing memories - tiny, meaningful moments in time. He's not so fussy about the details any more.
If you consider 48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame...if both were 'same generation' circuits, the 48 MP APS-C would be far noisier than 24MP FF...each APS-C pixel would be only 18.2% of the area of the FF pixel, so far inferior S/N ratio resulting in more visible noise in the APS-C image!
At this point in his life, photography is mostly about capturing memories - tiny, meaningful moments in time. He's not so fussy about the details any more.
He basically could not tell the difference -- www.subclub.org/apx25.pdf -- despite having to enlarge the 35mm film much more. Same with pixels, so:
"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".
And maybe PRICE!!!
Pretty much sums up where I am in life...I started (professionally) with 135, grew into pretty much abandoning 135 for medium format film, and also shot with 4x5 for commercial shoots.
I graduated to digital in the early 2000's, first with APS-C and then added FF when used cameras made FF digital affordable even for a non-pro shooter. I still find APS-C dSLR fully satisfying, do not sweat the details about ultimate in low noise at high ISO, nor do I care if I do not have >25Mpixel images, and 5fps is plenty fast enough for me. I posted on POTN the image captured with 12MPixel point-and-shoot and enlarged to 20x60" canvas print that occupies one one in my living room.
I am not finding myself in 'need' of spending $3300 on a Canon R5 or $2500 on R6 nor even $1400 on R7.Anyone switched to really small cameras? -- The Lounge in photography-on-the.net forums
Anyone switched to really small cameras? in The Loungephotography-on-the.net
Do you know of an APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor? I sort of stopped keeping up with the latest APS-C sensors. Assuming a APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor exists, why would you be comparing it to a FF camera with a 24MP sensor.
You can get a 6Dmk1 for relative peanuts these days, I still use it for paid work.
Then you have to get those honking big Canon full frame lenses.
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