24 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???

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koraks

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Use the same lens at the same f-stop, one FF & one APS

Yeah. But in practice, to get the same shot and ultimately the same print, people will use a shorter lens on the APS-C camera to get the same angle of view.
You're technically right, but in practice, people don't photograph that way, and will experience a smaller DoF on a larger sensor. Unless the photographer is a physicist, perhaps.

Also, how often had this particular horse been beaten to a pulp over the past 20 years or so? I mean, have at it, but this is the usefulness of the acid stop bath all over again.
 

Cholentpot

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...but that's comparing a 60mm focal length to a 100mm focal length. The bokeh and DoF differences would have been there even if both photos were made with the same camera. Thus, the observed bokeh and DoF results are completely independent of the camera. It is not the APS-C camera that has more DoF; it is the lens used. It is very misleading/confusing/wrong to say, "the APS-C camera will have greater DoF". It is not the camera. It is the lens.

Ok, can I simplify?

A young man who started shooting film in 2021 wants to move into digital. He's used to shooting on say, a Nikon F3 with a 50 1.8, he's trained his eye to that focal length and knows it well. On advice and budget he gets an APS-C Nikon DSLR and a 35mm 1.8 because he's been assured that it's the same as shooting 50mm on film. After struggling to get his look for months he wanders into a camera store and on a whim picks up a full frame Nikon body and puts a 50mm 1.8 on it. Our intrepid friend is quite surprised to find his old setup works perfect. He may have thought something was just intrinsically wrong with digital when in fact a 35mm lens will look like 35mm and a 50mm will look like 50mm no matter what sensor you put it on!

I went through this myself. I was told up and down and people swore that I just need to use a wider lens to match my preference when using a crop sensor. The day my pre-owned Canon 6D came in the mail and I put that plastic fantastic 50 1.8 on it I realized most people have no clue what they're talking about.

There's nothing wrong with APS-C but you'll get an APS-C look when using an APS-C camera. You will get a more classic photographic look when using full frame.
 

Cholentpot

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Yeah. But in practice, to get the same shot and ultimately the same print, people will use a shorter lens on the APS-C camera to get the same angle of view.
You're technically right, but in practice, people don't photograph that way, and will experience a smaller DoF on a larger sensor. Unless the photographer is a physicist, perhaps.

Also, how often had this particular horse been beaten to a pulp over the past 20 years or so? I mean, have at it, but this is the usefulness of the acid stop bath all over again.

Heck it's been beaten to death and @wiltw posted a very simple comparison that should have closed out the argument for good.

 

koraks

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Heck it's been beaten to death and @wiltw posted a very simple comparison that should have closed out the argument for good.

Yup, as far as I'm concerned, that covers it.

I'm sure that won't stop others from exploring this further, though.

@BradS if you want us to split off the DoF discussion from your thread, just hit the 'report' button and we'll untangle it. If you want it to stay where it is, that's also fine by me.
 
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BradS

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....

@BradS if you want us to split off the DoF discussion from your thread, just hit the 'report' button and we'll untangle it. If you want it to stay where it is, that's also fine by me.

I'm good with the discussion staying here. It all relates to understanding the pros and cons of APS-C. Thank you for offering though.
 

xkaes

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You're technically right, but in practice, people don't photograph that way, and will experience a smaller DoF on a larger sensor. Unless the photographer is a physicist, perhaps.

I guess I should consider myself lucky that I can get any DOF at all out of my enormous 4x5" cameras & lenses.

But you are, of course, right -- the vast majority of shutterbugs avoid the details & "shoot" in whatever way they want.
 

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I'm good with the discussion staying here. It all relates to understanding the pros and cons of APS-C. Thank you for offering though.

So Brad,

Conclusion at least from my standpoint. Crop cameras and smaller and lighter for the most part. They're also just as capable as a full frame, you're really not lacking anything by using APS-C however, you will have a different look to your photos than if using a full frame. For some things, in my opinion, it doesn't matter. Birding, landscape, sports, no big deal. Portraits and things a bit closer but not macro it'll make a difference.

If I wanted something to sling around and have fun with, maybe a slick JPEG machine I wouldn't hesitate to look at a crop.
 

xkaes

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I'm good with the discussion staying here. It all relates to understanding the pros and cons of APS-C.

And to reiterate what I've said before -- probably more than once -- if size, weight and/or cost are important, I'd go with an APS setup, regardless of what MP you decide on.

One way to think about it is a full-frame 35mm camera versus a half-frame 35mm camera. My half-frame Pen FT gives the same quality results as my full-frame Minolta XK -- I use the same lenses on both. I have to enlarge the Pen FT negatives 2X to get the same size print, though. The results are still great, but if I want a BIG print or the best detail (AKA, smallest circle of confusion), I use the XK.
 
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BradS

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... I realized most people have no clue what they're talking about.

It may be that people have a clue but they fail to recognize and clearly articulate their assumptions, and they are imprecise in their use of language.
In discussions of technical matters this is hazardous at best.

EDIT: of course, the beauty of the empirical examples presented by @Cholentpot and @wiltw is that they make the assumptions clear - even if left implicit.
 
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faberryman

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The blurred background is what sells.

Ah, the crux of it. If it is the blur that sells, I am surprised you are not shooting medium format digital, instead of compromising with the 36x24 crop format. Maybe medium format digital doesn't have any bazooka lenses to impress clients.
 
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Cholentpot

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It may be that people have a clue but they fail to recognize and clearly articulate their assumptions, and they are imprecise in their use of language.
In discussions of technical matters this is hazardous at best.

EDIT: of course, the beauty of the empirical examples presented by @Cholentpot and @wiltw is that they make the assumptions clear - even if left implicit.

Or many people parrot what they hear or never actually go out and test what they think they know. Instead of arguing with charts and calculators and theories, just go out and shoot.

Ah, the crux of it. If it is the blur that sells, I am surprised you are not shooting medium format digital.

Ain't that the truth.

I do shoot medium format but not digital. I have to eat after all. I do use the Brenizer method once in a while.
 

wiltw

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...but that's comparing a 60mm focal length to a 100mm focal length. The bokeh and DoF differences would have been there even if both photos were made with the same camera. Thus, the observed bokeh and DoF results are completely independent of the camera. It is not the APS-C camera that has more DoF; it is the lens used. It is very misleading/confusing/wrong to say, "the APS-C camera will have greater DoF". It is not the camera. It is the lens.

That is true BUT your point ignores the total area captured by the sensor/film, and the fact that folks ordinarily will FILL the print with whatever area is captured...so the APS-C image enlarged 60% higher magnification (to fill 8x12" print with 14.5x22.3 mm image),
leading to the APS-C image with 100mm having SHALLOWER DOF than 100mm on FF!

Again, from Cambridge in Color web site...
  • APS-C 100mm f/2.8 shooting distance 10' has DOF zone which is 0.11' deep in 8x10 print
  • FF 100mm f/2.8 shooting distance 10' has DOF zone which is 0.18' deep in 8x10 print
To your point, if you photograph with APS-C and FF, both with 100mm at f/2.8, AND if you crop the FF image to (approximately) 14.5 x 22mm image area, and enlarge both images to fill the 8" (narrow direction) print, both indeed will have IDENTICAL DOF and same degree of blur in the farfield (out-of-focus).
 

xkaes

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If you had asked the question:

"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".

Pixels are equivalent to grain & ISO in film -- much like my Pen FT vs Minolta XK comparison.

Another example is a comparison that David Brooks did for Peterson's Photographic when Agfapan 25 first was produced. He wanted to "push the envelope" and compared super-fine-grain Agfapan 25 in a 35mm camera to a 4x5" camera -- with Agfapan 400.

He basically could not tell the difference -- www.subclub.org/apx25.pdf -- despite having to enlarge the 35mm film much more. Same with pixels, so:

"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".

And maybe PRICE!!!
 

wiltw

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Same with pixels, so:

"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".

And maybe PRICE!!!
If you consider 48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame...if both were 'same generation' circuits, the 48 MP APS-C would be far noisier than 24MP FF...each APS-C pixel would be only 18.2% of the area of the FF pixel, so far inferior S/N ratio resulting in more visible noise in the APS-C image!
 
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BradS

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A young man who started shooting film in 2021 wants to move into digital. He's used to shooting on say, a Nikon F3 with a 50 1.8, he's trained his eye to that focal length and knows it well. On advice and budget he gets an APS-C Nikon DSLR and a 35mm 1.8 because he's been assured that it's the same as shooting 50mm on film. After struggling to get his look for months he wanders into a camera store and on a whim picks up a full frame Nikon body and puts a 50mm 1.8 on it. Our intrepid friend is quite surprised to find his old setup works perfect. He may have thought something was just intrinsically wrong with digital when in fact a 35mm lens will look like 35mm and a 50mm will look like 50mm no matter what sensor you put it on!

I went through this myself. I was told up and down and people swore that I just need to use a wider lens to match my preference when using a crop sensor. The day my pre-owned Canon 6D came in the mail and I put that plastic fantastic 50 1.8 on it I realized most people have no clue what they're talking about.

There's nothing wrong with APS-C but you'll get an APS-C look when using an APS-C camera. You will get a more classic photographic look when using full frame.

Lemme tell you a story of a feisty (some might say cantankerous) gentleman who spent 30 years in the cube farm, with coffee stained carpet under foot, and fluorescent lighting overhead, and a computer keyboard at hand. He started doing photography (he abhors the gun metaphor) in the early 1970's and has mainly used 35mm and 4x5. He was staunchly, adamantly, fiercely a film user until late 2021 when the lack of a darkroom, the high cost of color film, and the difficult and expensive logistics associated with having it processed and printed coaxed him to consider trying digital. He had the singular good fortune to retire four years ago at age 55 and now lives a simple life on a ridiculously small income in a ramshackle old house in the hinterlands of California and he just wants to drink coffee, hike in the mountains, eat cinnamon rolls, be humbled and awed by nature, visit friends and family, study literature, and film, and history, take an occasional road trip, go to an opera or a museum of fine art or natural history once in a while ... and, maybe, one day, write a screen play. At this point in his life, photography is mostly about capturing memories - tiny, meaningful moments in time. He's not so fussy about the details any more.
 
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Cholentpot

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Lemme tell you a story of a feisty (some might say cantankerous) gentleman who spent 30 years in the cube farm, with coffee stained carpet under foot, and fluorescent lighting overhead, and a computer keyboard at hand. He started doing photography (he abhors the gun metaphor) in the early 1970's and has mainly used 35mm and 4x5. He was staunchly and adamantly a film user until late 2021 when the lack of a darkroom, the high cost of color film, and the difficult and expensive logistics associated with having it processed and printed coaxed him to consider trying digital. He had the singular good fortune to retire four years ago at age 55 and now lives a simple life on a ridiculously small income in a ramshackle old house in the hinterlands of California and quite content to drink coffee, hike in the mountains, eat cinnamon rolls, be humbled and awed by nature, visit friends and family, study literature, and film, and history, take an occasional road trip, go to an opera or a museum of fine art or natural history once in a while ... and, maybe, one day, write a screen play. At this point in his life, photography is mostly about capturing memories - tiny, meaningful moments in time. He's not so fussy about the details any more.

I'd get a nice Fuji with the analog style buttons and dials. Shoot JPEGs and enjoy life. Use the awesome filters they have and no fuss or worries.

As for shooting, I do both but understand those who don't. Not everyone's cup of leaves.

Edit: I didn't start with film in '21, just chose a random year. And I started with a Lubitel. The story is not the story of me.
 

xkaes

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For him, I'd recommend a Nikon COOLPIX 5600 -- incredibly small, with a 35-105mm (equivalent) zoom -- with zooming viewfinder and rear screen, AND video too. More importantly, it uses AA batteries -- none of this charging crap. Has a built-in flash, too and the important automatic features can be adjusted -- like +/- exposure. Tripod socket, self-timer, date imprint -- you name it . Has 5.6MP great for 8x10" shots. $5 TOPS.

Want more? The Minolta A2 with fixed 28-200mm macro zoom. Does more than the Sony a-900 does (the Sony doesn't have a built-in flash, doesn't do video either) in an incredible tiny package. The damn thing will even solarize your pictures if you want or put in B&W filters. 8MP sensor good to 16x20". $20 TOPS, but cost over $1,000 when it came out!!!
 

faberryman

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If you consider 48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame...if both were 'same generation' circuits, the 48 MP APS-C would be far noisier than 24MP FF...each APS-C pixel would be only 18.2% of the area of the FF pixel, so far inferior S/N ratio resulting in more visible noise in the APS-C image!

Do you know of an APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor? I sort of stopped keeping up with the latest APS-C sensors. Assuming a APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor exists, why would you be comparing it to a FF camera with a 24MP sensor.
 
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wiltw

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At this point in his life, photography is mostly about capturing memories - tiny, meaningful moments in time. He's not so fussy about the details any more.

Pretty much sums up where I am in life...I started (professionally) with 135, grew into pretty much abandoning 135 for medium format film, and also shot with 4x5 for commercial shoots.
I graduated to digital in the early 2000's, first with APS-C and then added FF when used cameras made FF digital affordable even for a non-pro shooter. I still find APS-C dSLR fully satisfying, do not sweat the details about ultimate in low noise at high ISO, nor do I care if I do not have >25Mpixel images, and 5fps is plenty fast enough for me. I posted on POTN the image captured with 12MPixel point-and-shoot and enlarged to 20x60" canvas print that occupies one one in my living room.
I am not finding myself in 'need' of spending $3300 on a Canon R5 or $2500 on R6 nor even $1400 on R7.
 

faberryman

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He basically could not tell the difference -- www.subclub.org/apx25.pdf -- despite having to enlarge the 35mm film much more. Same with pixels, so:

"48 mega pixels APS-C vs 24 megapixel full frame???" or "24 mega pixels APS-C vs 12 megapixel full frame???", I would have said, "the only difference is maybe size & weight".

And maybe PRICE!!!

Is there some reason you feel it necessary to shout? My immediate reaction is to ignore people who shout. It is uncivil.
 
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MattKing

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FWIW, I am blown away with how good the straight out of the camera jpegs are from my wife's Micro 4/3 mirrorless DSLR - a 16 mega pixel Olympus OM-D EM-10 Mk II with the kit 14-42mm lens.
 

Cholentpot

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Pretty much sums up where I am in life...I started (professionally) with 135, grew into pretty much abandoning 135 for medium format film, and also shot with 4x5 for commercial shoots.
I graduated to digital in the early 2000's, first with APS-C and then added FF when used cameras made FF digital affordable even for a non-pro shooter. I still find APS-C dSLR fully satisfying, do not sweat the details about ultimate in low noise at high ISO, nor do I care if I do not have >25Mpixel images, and 5fps is plenty fast enough for me. I posted on POTN the image captured with 12MPixel point-and-shoot and enlarged to 20x60" canvas print that occupies one one in my living room.
I am not finding myself in 'need' of spending $3300 on a Canon R5 or $2500 on R6 nor even $1400 on R7.

You can get a 6Dmk1 for relative peanuts these days, I still use it for paid work.
 

xkaes

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Do you know of an APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor? I sort of stopped keeping up with the latest APS-C sensors. Assuming a APS-C camera with a 48MP sensor exists, why would you be comparing it to a FF camera with a 24MP sensor.

I don't keep up with APS cameras, but the FF cameras are over 60MP at this point -- but I don't keep up with them as well. A FF 24Mp sensor is going to be similar to a APS 48MP sensor -- it's twice the size so it only has to be enlarged 1/2 as much -- exactly like a 24x36mm film camera vs a half-frame 12x18mm film camera.

Similarly, a 12MP FF will give results similar to a 24MP APS
 
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