22 years later vacuum tubes still available...

[Paul Goutiere]

Btw, why are vacuum tubes so good for sound?
I would really like a detailed, yet in layman's terms explanation.

Just like others have said on this post, tubes can color the sound of a recording in ways that some prefer. An analysis of the audio will show some distortion specific to tubes. Solid state can add it's own coloration to be sure.

For the amount of power, tube amplifiers consume, (heat from the filaments in the tubes, heat from the usually inefficient transformers, heat from the emission currents in the tubes. Heat ain't audio, heat is heat!) they produce relatively little audio power.

Internally there are voltages around 350 to 700 volts, so fiddling is done with a great deal of caution. (Voltages that can kill you, or at least make a pretty good mess of your underwear)

But...I like tube stuff. I like tube stuff likely because It was there when I was young. Tube design can be amazingly simple. Tubes color some sound in a way I enjoy. I can still fix tube stuff. Tubes filaments glow red and if you look closely at the output tubes a deep violet.

There is also the added bonus of the fantastic hyperbole, downright lies and bullshit, about tube stuff to keep one entertained for hours if one Googles "tube amp".

 

[Photo Engineer]

MIG 17s and MIG 21s are equipped with vacuum tubes instead of chips....the planes will still function in an atmosphere of nuclear flux while the chip driven planes we fly won't!!!..EC

And, a slight loss in power needed to drive those tubes shuts them down, while a sharp jolt via gravity or explosion nearby breaks delicate filaments and bends the wire guides.

We went through the pros and cons. So, with solid state, the circuit boards sublime in vacuum and either break or make a connection causing a breakdown.

Everything has good and bad points.

PE

 

[2F/2F]

The top-of-the-line musical instrument amps are *still*, and always have been in the eyes of musicians, tube amps. Now, there have been times when solid state was pushed as the top of the line...but nobody with ears believed them, tubes never died, and now tube amps show no signs of going away any time soon. Ampeg, Marshall, Fender have all got smart and kept offering both, so we have a choice. They offer us tube and solid state models, but the industry standards are still tube amps: The SVT, the JCM, and the Twin or Showman (actually, I am pretty sure they do not make the Showman any more). They are power hogs. They are inefficient. They are heavy. They are finicky. They have a host of quirks compared to solid state, but the simple fact is that nothing sounds like them, and that is what matters in music more than anything else. They are still around because people in the know can still tell the difference (and/or because people with $$$ claim they can!). For those here who might not understand, it's the same basic reason why we all know and love film. You cannot replace infinite (analog) with finite (digital) and expect the same results. (Not better or worse results, but *same* results.)

 

[PHOTOTONE]

There are plenty of new tube based HiFi stereo amps for home audio use. From simple kit amps to extreme exotics costing $20,000 or more. A nice kit amplifier you could build that would deliver a solid 40 watts per channel is about $500, or so. You can find some tube amp advertisements in Audio magazines. Others are available online. There are even a few magazines devoted to analog audio and vacuum tubes. Vacuum Tube Valley is one such magazine. I think the materials required to make quality tubes and the manufacturing equipment put tube making in the "very difficult" category. It is one thing to make "one" tube, quite another thing to make a whole range of different tubes in the thousands with each tube having the correct specifications.

For new tube audio amps check out this: http://www.caryaudio.com/
and http://www.ampdesign.de/
and http://www.diyhifisupply.com/
and http://www.audionote.co.uk/

 

[Steve Smith]

In the early days of transistor amplifiers the transition at the crossover point (where the signal swings from positive to negative and back again) was not handled very well by the two (usually) output devices. This caused a problem with quiet passages of music and caused 'listening fatigue'.

In modern designs this is well corrected for but initially added to the perceived and/or actual preference for listening with a tube amp over a transistor amp.

This is not to say that a tube amp was perfect or better - just different. And that difference was in the favourable direction with regards to listening experience.


Steve.

 

[Soeren]

the boxes for the russian tubes are the coolest.
a rocket ship shooting to planets and stars

So this is your favourite song

Flash - Ah - Saviour of the universe
Flash - Ah - He'll save ev'ry one of us

 

[AutumnJazz]

Tube amps exhibit a lot of distortion. So technically, solid state is better. But it all comes down to the design of the electrical circut. If it sucks, it will suck...regardless of it being SS or tube.

 

[ic-racer]

I can't speak for the audiophiles, but in guitar amps, a conventional transistor does not distort in an 'ear pleasing' way. A MOSFET (which is a solid state device) circuit can be made to distort nicely, however, I personally feel it is much EASIER to get good results with tubes than MOSFETS. The tube circuits are simpler, and easier to build, and easier to tweak for good sounds.

Here is a clip of a tube guitar amp I recently built showing an interplay between distorted and un-distorted sounds:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6706810

 

[PVia]

Hey ic-racer...

Do you mean you built the amp?

Are you the maker of Dumble amps?

We need to talk... ;-)

Paul

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Here is a clip of a tube guitar amp I recently built showing an interplay between distorted and un-distorted sounds:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6706810

Nice fat sound there!

 

[ic-racer]

Hey ic-racer...

Do you mean you built the amp?

Are you the maker of Dumble amps?

We need to talk... ;-)

Paul

Dumble-STYLE! amp. Not the real thing!!! It has a circuit layout and tone similar to a Dumble modded Fender. Using this style circuit in contemporary amps is very popular right now. Perhaps because of, or causing the price of real Dumbles to exceed $25,000 USD.

There happens to be a real one on e-bay right now : http://cgi.ebay.com/Dumble-Overdriv...ryZ10171QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Buy it now for $59,000 USD

 

[ic-racer]

I also made an exact replica for my personal use and I would never sell it.

 

[galyons]

Tube amps exhibit a lot of distortion. So technically, solid state is better. But it all comes down to the design of the electrical circut. If it sucks, it will suck...regardless of it being SS or tube.

Tubes have more even order distortion than solid state. Solid state has more odd order. Our auditory system is trained to prefer even order over odd order. All acoustical musical instruments exhibit even order tone distortion; it's called overtones and is part of the musical signature of the instrument. Transistors have nasty switching distortion. Since a transistor is a switch and a tube is a valve, tubes do not exhibit switching distortion, which is anti-musical in the minutest amounts.

"Technically" solid state measures better. If you like to read spec's, solid state is your game, but if the quality of musical sound reproduction is vitally important.... well I think you know where I'm going! Of course, YMMV!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Tubes have more even order distortion than solid state. Solid state has more odd order.

Think warm, orchestral strings for even order-sounds, and harsh, oboe-type sounds for odd-order sounds.

God, I hate oboes...

Apologies to any oboe players I may offend with that bit of opinion.

 

[Steve Smith]

God, I hate oboes....

I love oboes. Hate saxophones (sorry!).



Steve.

 

[FilmIs4Ever]

Unfortunately film and audio are two completely different things. Tubes aside for a moment, tape is child's play in comparison to coating film. So this is an imperfect analogy at best.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ummm, Kodak quit making professional audio and video tape due to poor quality. Other products were superior. The Kodak products were good enough and inexpensive enough for only the amateurs not the pros.

PE

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

They seem to have put out a quality CD-R, though. I've had fewer problems with Kodak Preservation Disk CD-R media than with other CD-Rs, but they're also more expensive and not widely available, so I don't know how well they've done in the market.

 

[Photo Engineer]

They made a determined effort to put out a quality CD and DVD material that has very good keeping. One of the guys who ended up working on this project used to work for me.

PE

 

[thuggins]

Internally there are voltages around 350 to 700 volts, so fiddling is done with a great deal of caution. (Voltages that can kill you, or at least make a pretty good mess of your underwear)

Actually, voltage can't kill you. That's why you can grab the spark plug wires of your car and get 20000 volts, or more than 1 million volts from a Van Der Graff generator, without any harm. It's the amperage that kills you, voltage only hertz.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Van DeGraff is more like 100 - 200,000 on average. The Tesla coil puts out 1 - 2 M on average. They used to demonstrate them both at the old Buehl Planetarium in Pittsburgh along with the science behind them.

However, for a person with heart problems, any sufficient spark or electrical jolt can kill.

The high voltage from the tube TV flyback transformer can leave a hefty voltage in the tube itself which is a super sized capacitor that can have lethal results if discharged through the body. And, that is another point. The path through the body is critical. A jolt across two fingers on the same hand is less lethal (generally) than across 2 fingers of both hands. Also, DC is more lethal than AC due to the "kick" of the AC and the "stickiness" of the DC.

PE

 

[ic-racer]

Actually, voltage can't kill you. That's why you can grab the spark plug wires of your car and get 20000 volts, or more than 1 million volts from a Van Der Graff generator, without any harm. It's the amperage that kills you, voltage only hertz.

Usually, but in the case of commotio cordis only a few milliamps are involved.

Also, the minimal current to fibrillate the human ventricle is a few milliamps (when applied to the endocardium on the peak of the 'T').

 

[Paul Goutiere]

Actually, voltage can't kill you. That's why you can grab the spark plug wires of your car and get 20000 volts, or more than 1 million volts from a Van Der Graff generator, without any harm. It's the amperage that kills you, voltage only hertz.

Voltages available on the plates of a tube amplifier can and have stopped peoples hearts. Serious injuries caused by the bodies reaction to a shock are also possible. The VA available in a tube amplifier are quite enough to do a person harm, because there is quite a bit of current involved as well.

So yes, it will be the amperage that will do harm. I suggest this site:

http://www.dansdata.com/gz013.htm

And here as well:

http://www.bassengineering.com/E_Effect.htm

 

[ic-racer]

Boy, is my last post way off topic.

Anyway, back to the point. There was some anxiety on my part surrounding the termination of US tube production back in the 80s. Not only did I have a lot of money tied up in tube guitar amps, the sound was a key element of my playing. If the analogy between the tube and film industries can be made, I don't know, however, I can make an analogy of similar anxiety, as I anticipate potential cease of US film productions. For I have a lot of money tied up in film cameras and darkroom equipment and the silver image is a key element in my art.

(Comments on B&W only)
How good does film need to be?? The 'analog B&W process' is a heavily distorted already. For example all color information is thrown out the window. The image is 2D instead of 3D. The grain gives texture to objects without texture. And in many (not all, but most) cases the density range of the image is compressed. These 'distortions' are what makes the medium so cool! Would I be happy with an inferior product? Perhaps, as it would be 'better than nothing.' (but I wouldn't let any manufacturer know those thoughts )

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ever see I-Max Stereo?

It is possible to eliminate just about every fault with analog photography (or just about) that you mention and the nice thing is that no digital photo system can even approach I-Max for the outstanding quality it produces.

PE