2 bath macrodol-x

mrred · Jan 6, 2014

Browsing through the Film Developing Cookbook in the D-23 section, they suggest adding 30g of NaCL to either A and/or B bath. This effectively makes it macrodol-x. Nice idea.

But it struck me that the film will only be immersed in a solvent for 6 mins (assuming both baths) when it would be conceivable that a normal run of macrodol-x could take up to 20 mins.

Would the solvent time be enough or should I increase the amount of the salt?

Gerald C Koch · Jan 6, 2014

At 30 g/l you are very close to the maximum amount of salt at room temperature that will dissolve. So you cannot increase the amount. Which is probably why this amount was specified.

mrred · Jan 6, 2014

I guess there is the limit.

Athiril · Jan 6, 2014

30g/L is not close at 20 degrees celsius.

The saturation point of NaCl in water (at 20 degrees celsius) is 35.7g per 100mL, or 357g/L.

Even if worse came to worse, you could use potassium chloride for increased solubility. You could also potentially use sodium or potassium thiocyanate as an alternative more powerful solvent that you'd need far less of.

Photo Engineer · Jan 6, 2014

Well, first it is Microdol X and second there was a secret ingredient that is not published in A&T or in Anchell.

I've talked to Bill and Steve, but there will be no second edition of A&T and therefore we may never write down the "real" ingredient list.

What you have though, works reasonably well. However, a 2 bath developer must have times optimized for each film used due to gelatin thickness which absorbs different amounts of solution A. It takes playing with 2 bath developers which I assume this is what you are referring to.

Oh, and with a 2 bath solvent developer, it relies on the dissolved Silver ion being present throughout development for physical development to take place properly, so it is lost if the solvent is in bath A! Something most people forget. The solvent effect is greatly reduced.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Jan 6, 2014

Athiril said:
30g/L is not close at 20 degrees celsius.

The saturation point of NaCl in water (at 20 degrees celsius) is 35.7g per 100mL, or 357g/L.

Even if worse came to worse, you could use potassium chloride for increased solubility. You could also potentially use sodium or potassium thiocyanate as an alternative more powerful solvent that you'd need far less of.

You are correct. I apologize to the readers of this thread. I'm going to have to stop soon with posts to APUG as my eyesight continues to worsen.

Tom1956 · Jan 6, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
You are correct. I'm going to have to stop soon with posts to APUG as my eyesight continues to worsen.

Mr Koch, don't get away before I've had a chance to say thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have been well taught by a voice I consider one of credibility. Regards.

el wacho · Jan 7, 2014

Yes Mr Koch, i'd hate to see the loss of your contribution because of a mere oversight...

JW PHOTO · Jan 7, 2014

Tom1956 said:
Mr Koch, don't get away before I've had a chance to say thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have been well taught by a voice I consider one of credibility. Regards.

I'll second that! JohnW

JW PHOTO · Jan 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Well, first it is Microdol X and second there was a secret ingredient that is not published in A&T or in Anchell.

I've talked to Bill and Steve, but there will be no second edition of A&T and therefore we may never write down the "real" ingredient list.

What you have though, works reasonably well. However, a 2 bath developer must have times optimized for each film used due to gelatin thickness which absorbs different amounts of solution A. It takes playing with 2 bath developers which I assume this is what you are referring to.

Oh, and with a 2 bath solvent developer, it relies on the dissolved Silver ion being present throughout development for physical development to take place properly, so it is lost if the solvent is in bath A! Something most people forget. The solvent effect is greatly reduced.

PE

PE I don't get what you're saying? Are you saying that if you break down Microdol-X into a two bath developer then the salt/NaCL goes into the second bath? Like a two bath D-23 with salt in the second bath! JohnW

JW PHOTO · Jan 7, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
It must also be realized in these divided Metol/sulfite (A) Alkali (B) formulas, no matter how much salt you put in, the extra fine grain properties of single bath Microdol-type formulas are lessened because development is fairly rapid in bath B. Solvent effects also depend on time.

PE, are you saying if there had been a second FDC you would have disclosed the secret anti-plating agent (or other agent) present in Microdol-X. If it isn't a matter or confidentiality with Kodak, why not simply disclose it here rather than in the book? It is probably too exotic for the average home cook to get his hands on anyway.

I was wondering the same thing? Maybe PE could suggest we try two or three different additives and their rounded off weights per gram to try. No secrets given away that way and it would be fun to play with.

Alan Johnson · Jan 7, 2014

I don't have any microdol-x but the pH of Perceptol I measured at ~7 compared to pH= 9.7 for a 10% solution of sodium sulfite so the modified D-23 won't give such fine grain presumeably.
Jerry Koch your posts are very helpful, hope you will continue.

mrred · Jan 7, 2014

Alan Johnson said:
I don't have any microdol-x but the pH of Perceptol I measured at ~7 compared to pH= 9.7 for a 10% solution of sodium sulfite so the modified D-23 won't give such fine grain presumeably.

I guess a 2 bath version of this would cure the ph part.

Jerry, I look for yours and PE's posts where ever they are. They do help. Keep posting!

Photo Engineer · Jan 7, 2014

1. Jerrry, please don't leave. My eyesight is poor too. I use a magnifying glass to read some of the text. C'mon, you can do it.

2. Two bath developers are extremely tricky to use, especially if you use more than one type of film, because no two films will pick up part A in the same way.

3. Two bath solvent developers are even more difficult as I explained before. The solvent should be present during development (part B) for the physical development to take place close to what is intended.

4. I have no reason to disclose anything at this moment. I would have to consult with Bill Troop before I did anything. We still (AFAIK) have not given up on the idea of a new book of some sort. Why give out spoilers?

PE

mrred · Jan 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
I have no reason to disclose anything at this moment. I would have to consult with Bill Troop before I did anything. We still (AFAIK) have not given up on the idea of a new book of some sort. Why give out spoilers?

Because it will greatly benefit the community of which you belong. They have benefited from me twice already.

JW PHOTO · Jan 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
1. Jerrry, please don't leave. My eyesight is poor too. I use a magnifying glass to read some of the text. C'mon, you can do it.

2. Two bath developers are extremely tricky to use, especially if you use more than one type of film, because no two films will pick up part A in the same way.

3. Two bath solvent developers are even more difficult as I explained before. The solvent should be present during development (part B) for the physical development to take place close to what is intended.

4. I have no reason to disclose anything at this moment. I would have to consult with Bill Troop before I did anything. We still (AFAIK) have not given up on the idea of a new book of some sort. Why give out spoilers?

PE

I understand number two (2.) and realize no two films and their development are the same.
Number (3.) I guess doesn't apply to two bath developers like D-23 since they are not true "two bathe" developers and there is some development that takes place in bath "A". So does it make a difference if the NaCl (salt) goes in bath "A" or bath "B" in split D-23?

As for (4.) I surely hope you jot down all the secrets you have and put them in a little box with a label on it that says, "send to APUG if anything should happen to me". God forbid nothing does of course! I'll probably be gone before you, but I'm sure other folks here would greatly appreciate the information PE. That secret ingredient for Microdol-X is probably so simple that you are chuckling to yourself right now. Come on, let us chuckle with you. Take care, JohnW.

Photo Engineer · Jan 7, 2014

The solvent should be present during development! That says it all. If development takes place in both A and B, then guess what? Each should contain a portion of the solvent to get the full effect. How much? IDK! That is why I do not favor 2 bath developers. I think that you add an additional and unnecessary step or variable if you use them.

As for secrets, I've said this before. The patent by R. Henn gives the full set of Microdol and Microdol X formulas and all "secret" ingredients AFAIK. I've just done the hard part for you looking it up. If you are that interested, go read a few dozen patents and you will have not only that but the formula for HC110, much good that one will do you.

You see, I have 2 or 3 bankers boxes of patents here, each of which I have read, and I have read thousands of them on-line. In addition, I knew Dick Henn. So, the only thing I can add are anecdoes by or about Dick. The truth is out there. I'm also old and am getting tired of doing all of the legwork. You guys deserve the chance of having some fun now.

PE

Shawn Dougherty · Jan 7, 2014

This took no time to turn up. A little more digging should reveal many things. Click on the images and then the "original image" link in blue at the top for a better look.

https://www.google.com/patents/US24...a=X&ei=CnvMUuC4AcHGrgHnqIG4DQ&ved=0CE4Q6AEwAw

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
1. Jerrry, please don't leave. My eyesight is poor too. I use a magnifying glass to read some of the text. C'mon, you can do it.

2. Two bath developers are extremely tricky to use, especially if you use more than one type of film, because no two films will pick up part A in the same way.

3. Two bath solvent developers are even more difficult as I explained before. The solvent should be present during development (part B) for the physical development to take place close to what is intended.

4. I have no reason to disclose anything at this moment. I would have to consult with Bill Troop before I did anything. We still (AFAIK) have not given up on the idea of a new book of some sort. Why give out spoilers?

PE

For item 1, on a Windows machine, hold down the CTRL key while using the mouse scroll wheel. This will magnify the display in most browsers. Heck, my vision is corrected to 20/20 and I still use it on some sites.

For item 2 ... uh, some may be, or maybe they are difficult to formulate beyond simple divided D76 or D23, but I've used Diafine for decades and it's the simplest developer ever devised to use, IME. If you mean specifically ones with solvent, then I've no experience with that. (I also used the old Cachet A/B once. It was simple, but gave grain like giant golfballs. I've never seen anything like it before or since. I didn't think it was possible to get grain like that from Tri-X with normal tonality. Others didn't report that problem.)

JW PHOTO · Jan 7, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
The solvent should be present during development! That says it all. If development takes place in both A and B, then guess what? Each should contain a portion of the solvent to get the full effect. How much? IDK! That is why I do not favor 2 bath developers. I think that you add an additional and unnecessary step or variable if you use them.

As for secrets, I've said this before. The patent by R. Henn gives the full set of Microdol and Microdol X formulas and all "secret" ingredients AFAIK. I've just done the hard part for you looking it up. If you are that interested, go read a few dozen patents and you will have not only that but the formula for HC110, much good that one will do you.

You see, I have 2 or 3 bankers boxes of patents here, each of which I have read, and I have read thousands of them on-line. In addition, I knew Dick Henn. So, the only thing I can add are anecdoes by or about Dick. The truth is out there. I'm also old and am getting tired of doing all of the legwork. You guys deserve the chance of having some fun now.

PE

Thanks PE! I always enjoy reading you replies and have to admit that I seek them out when I'm on this forum. I'm no spring chicken myself and I'm now trying to pass on what little I know to my grandchildren. Some of them seem interested and the others would rather play video games. Also, thanks for clarifying where the NaCL should go in a two bath. I really don't use two bath development, but was just curious as to what you were getting at with solvent statement. I guess I should admit that I do use Diafine for Tri-X from time to time, but I'm not a big user of even that. I think I'll take your advice and do some detective work tonight and look for some of those patents. I miss guys like Gadget Gainer so don't you and Jerry go taking off on us poor ignorant souls, 'cause you guys are what keeps most of us here on the straight and narrow. At least me anyway. JohnW

AndreasT · Jan 7, 2014

Roger Cole said:
For item 1, on a Windows machine, hold down the CTRL key while using the mouse scroll wheel. This will magnify the display in most browsers. Heck, my vision is corrected to 20/20 and I still use it on some sites.
)

I didn't know that one. I was about tomention CTRL and the "+" sign.
As long as you guys tell or write down your knowledge so that it doesn't get lost.
A new book of some sort would be fantastic being someone who hates reading or writting on a computer. I do most of my reading in the bath, it would get rather tight if I had to share it with my computer.

mrred · Jan 7, 2014

Either way, there is enough to go cooking tonight. All good stuff to go on, many combinations to try.

Athiril · Jan 7, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
You are correct. I apologize to the readers of this thread. I'm going to have to stop soon with posts to APUG as my eyesight continues to worsen.

There's no need to leave unless you want to get away really. You know most modern browsers have various options for magnification. If you hit CTRL + + (CTRL plus the + key) it'll enlarge the page each time you do it in most browsers, CTRL plus - to go the other way.

JW PHOTO said:
PE I don't get what you're saying? Are you saying that if you break down Microdol-X into a two bath developer then the salt/NaCL goes into the second bath? Like a two bath D-23 with salt in the second bath! JohnW

Both bathes would require it. Unless you are after part of the image developed as fine grain/solvent, and part of the image as not, stacked on each other. From playing around with various split-baths, good split-baths have some mild low contrast development occurring in Bath A.

I would leave out any anti-oxidant/preservative of Bath B if you intend to re-use it.

Michael R 1974 said:
It must also be realized in these divided Metol/sulfite (A) Alkali (B) formulas, no matter how much salt you put in, the extra fine grain properties of single bath Microdol-type formulas are lessened because development is fairly rapid in bath B. Solvent effects also depend on time..

This is the case where you can use thiocyanate.

BradS · Jan 7, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
Number (3.) I guess doesn't apply to two bath developers like D-23 since they are not true "two bathe" developers and there is some development that takes place in bath "A". So does it make a difference if the NaCl (salt) goes in bath "A" or bath "B" in split D-23?

...but.....D23 is not a two bath developer. ?:confused:
Perhaps, you're thinking of D-23 with an alkaline after bath?

mrred · Jan 7, 2014

I have some pot. ferriccyanide. Could this work?

2 bath macrodol-x

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