2-bath hair dye color experiment

Alan Johnson · Aug 10, 2014

This is loosely based on Dignan's 2 bath with the CD-4 replaced by PPD from hair dye.
http://silent1.home.netcom.com/Photography/Dilutions and Times.html#2-bath_C-41
Agfaphoto Vista 200 was exposed at EI=50 and processed as follows (temperature not critical)
Bath A......................5min 40C
Bath B......................6min 36C
Wash, then Bleach.....10min29C
Wash, then fix...........5min 31C
The image was very thin so I repeated all these steps.
There was no improvement, the image is still very thin.

Bath A
Hair dye color cream 2 tubes ~2.4g PPD or 4g/L
Sodium Sulfite .........................1tsp
Sodium Metabisulfite.................1/2 tsp
Water to ................................600ml
Bath B
Sodium carbonate decahydrate....270ml (or monohydrate-Arm&Hammer 120ml)
Iodized salt................................2tsp
Water to.....................................1L

I wonder if there is a way to improve the density of the image or is this a property of PPD?
Thanks

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2014

There are some hair dyes that use more active PPDs that are similar to CD4. You might try one of them.

Also, the fix step in your process will prevent any further dye formation. Use a rehal bleach and omit the fix and you will be able to boost the color density using several passes through the process.

PE

ME Super · Aug 10, 2014

I think what our good friend PE is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) regarding fix and rehal bleach:

Put it through your bath A and B first.
Put it through fixer before rehal bleach (otherwise you remove all the silver instead of all the silver except that used to form the image).
Put it through rehalogenating bleach.
If you don't have enough color density, expose to light (any non-image forming silver was removed in the first fix so is okay to expose to light!), then send back through steps 1 and 3 (no need to fix here, since you only have image-forming sliver left from the first fix).
When sufficient color density is achieved, put the film through a final fix to remove any sensitivity that might remain.

pdeeh · Aug 10, 2014

I experimented with hairdye colour developing AgfaVista a while back and got very weedy results indeed. I did discover along the way that black hairdye seems to be the "strongest".

I used a recipe I "found on the internet" (at Flickr actually), which included Phenidone (but I didn't have any at that time)

Coincidentally, I was reading Mason on Phenidone the other day (in connection with the colour change in the amixture of paRodinal and Phenidone), and he notes that Phenidone (and Metol) can be used to accelerate colour development with PPD and increase contrast.

So you might try 0.1g-0.2g/L of Phenidone in your "A" bath as well at some stage ...

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2014

ME, yeah, the rehal process has been repeated so often here that I made an assumption that it would be known by now. I need some caffeine to wake me up and develop my neurons!

Thanks.

PE

Alan Johnson · Aug 10, 2014

Thank you all, I think I understand how to cycle to get more color now.I hope to post results later.
The chemical names of CD-4 are so long.I will check out any dye packaging with a long name in the contents list.The discount store stuff I used is PPD based.
My experiment was based on the assumption the color cream tube contain 4% PPD as this is the maximum permitted in the EU regulations.

ME Super · Aug 10, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
ME, yeah, the rehal process has been repeated so often here that I made an assumption that it would be known by now. I need some caffeine to wake me up and develop my neurons!

Thanks.

PE

Hey no problem. Scary thing was, I'd just gotten back from a long bicycle ride and hadn't had any caffeine yet. Guess the bike ride substituted for the caffeine!

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2014

Sigh. I'm grounded from bike riding!

PE

Rudeofus · Aug 12, 2014

Two things come to my mind with this formula:

It's a two bath formula: bath A is PPD plus neutral Sulfite/Bisulfite mix, bath B is alkaline.
The ratio Sulfite/Bisulfite is very different in Dignan's (9:1) and your (2:1) recipe.
It contains plenty of Sulfite, which competes with color couplers for oxidized PPD.

You formula tries anything it can to keep contrast and density low, so your results shouldn't come as a surprise.

Alan Johnson · Aug 12, 2014

Thanks Rudeofus
My spell checker thinks you are really cool and calls you Dude of us.
I had wrongly assumed sodium sulfite/bisulfite was just a preservative and pH reducer.
In view of your comment I may leave out sulfite/bisufite and rely on excluding air as a preservative in the next mix.

Photo Engineer · Aug 12, 2014

You will need some sulfite there or the reaction is slowed down. Sulfite scavenges unused and oxidized PPD and thus if not present, the oxidation (which you want to some extent) will not take place.

PE

Rudeofus · Aug 12, 2014

I would also assume that the Sulfite will scavenge all the PPD that was oxidized from aerial oxidation during storage. You don't want oxidized PPD present when you start developing C-41 film ...

Alan Johnson · Aug 14, 2014

I tried a different brand of hair dye but this separated into 2 layers when diluted with 1tsp/L sulfite solution.
2 tsp shower gel was added to get it to emulsify.
The negatives were still very thin even after fixing and cycling rehal bleach>redevelop>fix.
The hair dye emulsion deposited as blobs on the negatives (Kodak Gold 200@EI=50),it seems preferable to avoid hair dye that does not dissolve.
In the attachment I adjusted the color of the bus to be approximately right, the sky was blue.

Rudeofus · Aug 14, 2014

If this hair dye separated into two parts, why not use the watery part and leave out the oily one? I would assume that the oily part does not contribute much to development, except for maybe the "interesting" color effects you show in that sample image.

Alan Johnson · Aug 15, 2014

Good idea, a lot of hair dyes seem to include the PPD in a cream .
I made a siphon using a flexible plastic tube (attachment).
For safety the plastic tube is first filled with tap water then dipped into the water layer containing PPD.
This is then siphoned off for use ( after filtering through cotton wool) and the oil residue that was floating on top is discarded.
PPD is associated with adverse reactions with skin, please search for details.

Rudeofus · Aug 15, 2014

I wonder whether there are solvents which more effectively concentrate the PPD in one part. PPD and consorts are well soluble in strong acids (Sulfuric Acid, but also the weaker Acetic Acid), whereas some couplers will oil out at low pH. Your sample pics sort of suggest that not only the embedded color couplers of your film were at work here.

Maybe you can find out which couplers are used in your brand of hair dye?

Alan Johnson · Aug 15, 2014

I have no knowledge of color coupler chemistry but if there is any comment on the attached list of ingredients of the cream from the black hair dye I am using it would be interesting.

Rudeofus · Aug 15, 2014

I would say that the main coupler is the Phenyl-Methyl-Pyrazolone, and there could be coupling with the 2-Methyl-Resorcinol. Photoengineer could probably tell you the colors that would form with these ...

I'm not sure whether these compounds are less soluble in Sulfuric Acid, but it can't hurt to try it: mix hair dye with Sulfuric Acid, wait for separation of phases, pick out the liquid phase. Then decant/siphon off and neutralize the watery phase, then add H2O2 to check whether there is still color coupler present. The good thing about Sulfuric and Acetic Acid is that (assuming pH is right) neither will interfere with developer formulations.

Alan Johnson · Aug 20, 2014

My next lot of hair dye was slightly different, it did not separate into two layers so I added some shower gel and shake the emulsion before use.
Also, I obtained less thin negatives by first developing in B/W developer.
Bath B was made 1 shot because blobs of grease form on cooling.

Vista 200 @EI=50
Develop Xtol 1+0 8min 20C
Fix
Rehalogenating Bleach 10 min 36C
Expose to daylight
Part A 5 min 36C
Part B 6 min 36C
Rehalogenating Bleach 10 min 33C
Fix 5 min 32C

In the attachment the red is about right but the blue sky has shifted to purple.
This is, just about, a viable process for obtaining strange colors but there is a problem with debris on the negatives in my test.

pdeeh · Aug 20, 2014

I've still got a couple of tubes of £Land's finest hairdye, I might dig it out and have another go.

It's curious, I've tried a few recipes for C41 colour development, using hairdye and whatnot as well as CD4, and when I get anything at all, the reds always seemed to be fairly true.

Rudeofus · Aug 20, 2014

Since you know the original scene: do you think one could fix the magenta sky by contrast adjustments for each color channel? If that is the case, you might be able to fix these different contrasts by changing the Xtol treatment step, using different temperature and possibly different concentration.

Steve Smith · Aug 20, 2014

Does this process end up with a negative or a positive?

Steve.

Alan Johnson · Aug 20, 2014

pdeeh,
That is an interesting observation that the red color often comes out right.

Rudi,
It would be simplest to change the temperature.It is a while since I did any C41 and I do not remember what effect this has.
IDK if one can predict the effects of process changes on the colors obtained.

Steve,
The process produces a negative on the usual orange base.

kb3lms · Aug 20, 2014

Has anyone used hair dye with the coupler to successfully reverse b/w film, ala K-14? I did it once as an experiment, which sort of worked. The actual image was very thin, but visible. it is posted here somewhere. DMIN was very high. I think I had the wrong sort of hair dye. It very quickly oxidized and coupled in air.

Rudeofus · Aug 21, 2014

Alan Johnson said:
It would be simplest to change the temperature.It is a while since I did any C41 and I do not remember what effect this has.

The trick in color processing is to develop three color layers in lock step, i.e. with parallel characteristic curves. If you change temperature of your bath, you have different swelling and diffusion, which means you change the ratio of development between layers. If you increase dilution, the top layer will see a more active developer than the bottom layer. All the methods of color balancing of C-41 and E-6 depend on exactly these techniques.

Since this is some sort of lomographic experiment, I see no point in playing with competing couplers and organic restrainers. I'd say check whether Xtol@38°C makes a visible difference, and whether dilution and pH changes (+Na2CO3, +Acetic Acid) change the result in the direction you want.

2-bath hair dye color experiment

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