1st Medium Format Camera Recommendations
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Ah Keith
It is exactly those sort of low down shots I mean. I can do the ordinary higher shots with the Ebony and Schneider 120 HM Macro (which is a lens I love). I have to admit that I rather fancy the 6x6cm format of the Hassy as I used to own a Mamiya C330f, the camera which made me fall in love with bellows and peering down at the GG... and later try LF with a MPP Mk V.
QG, many thanks for that weight comparison. Now to the agonising....... Mammy or Hassy... Mammy or Hassy...
Steve
It is exactly those sort of low down shots I mean. I can do the ordinary higher shots with the Ebony and Schneider 120 HM Macro (which is a lens I love). I have to admit that I rather fancy the 6x6cm format of the Hassy as I used to own a Mamiya C330f, the camera which made me fall in love with bellows and peering down at the GG... and later try LF with a MPP Mk V.
QG, many thanks for that weight comparison. Now to the agonising....... Mammy or Hassy... Mammy or Hassy...
Steve
Now to the agonising....... Mammy or Hassy... Mammy or Hassy...
Steve
Both! Try them out side by side.
Please, changing lenses on a Mamiya TLR is not all that complicated and it's impossible to screw up. If the lens is racked not all the way into the body, the retaining clip cannot be unlocked. Try that with a 'blad, and tell me about the "fiddle factor" when you need to unjam the works. There is no way to get the interlocks out of sync on the Mamiya C220 and C330. The retaining clip and the blackout curtain are interlocked so you can't accidentally ruin a frame while changing lenses. You can accidentally remove the dark slide from the 'blad's magazine when it's not attached to the camera and ruin a frame or three. Mamiya TLR's without coupled shutter cocking mechanisms are not difficult to deal with either. After a while, the motion is automatic. It's like driving a car with a proper gearbox and clutch. You just do it, and don't think about it. If you keep thinking that you have to think about it, you're just screwing yourself.
Dim viewfinders? Well, I'll give you that one. The ground glass on both my C220's are more dim than the ground glass on my 'blad, but they're not horrible and certainly a lot better than the finders I've seen on some lesser TLR's and yes, even on some older Rollieflexes and Rolliecords.
Fiddle factor? Nah, I don't think so. Besides, the OP isn't likely to find a working Hasselblad in his price range despite the fact that prices have fallen through the floor for these fine cameras.
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If you haven't decided yet, you might give these sites a look.
http://www.jafaphotography.com/index.html
http://www.photographyreview.com/cat/cameras/film-cameras/medium-format/PLS_3107crx.aspx
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-medium.shtml
http://photo.net/equipment/medium-format/
Think about the format, and how much weight you're willing to drag around. At your budget, a TLR would produce great results. The Bronica and Mamiya 4.5x6 kits are also very inexpensive. Something like a one-lens Bronica SQ kit is a likely a little beyond your budget, but not by much.
http://www.jafaphotography.com/index.html
http://www.photographyreview.com/cat/cameras/film-cameras/medium-format/PLS_3107crx.aspx
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-medium.shtml
http://photo.net/equipment/medium-format/
Think about the format, and how much weight you're willing to drag around. At your budget, a TLR would produce great results. The Bronica and Mamiya 4.5x6 kits are also very inexpensive. Something like a one-lens Bronica SQ kit is a likely a little beyond your budget, but not by much.
I used to sell cameras, so I am familiar with the Mamiya Cxxx family. Also this was a camera that my father used. I used it too, starting when the camera was new [It was one of the first of the C330s.]. It had a CdS prism to get rid of the left-right reversal. Before I got rid of it, I shot over thirty rolls of film in six weeks just to be sure that I did not want to keep it. I still found it very slow and cumbersome ever after shooting the thirty rolls. Loading film is faster on the Cxx, but then one cannot change film mid roll. The only concession to ergonomics was the focusing control on the left and right side.
I traded it in for a Hasselblad with a prism. Easier to hold. Easier to handled, almost like a 35mm SLR on steroids. Much faster to set up the exposure than the C330 right from the start. Changing lenses is faster than the C330 and fewer steps; much like changing lenses on 35mm SLRs such as Minolta, Cannon and Nikon. None of the $#!+, I missed the shot because the 250mm lens does not automatically cock. Lens jams - a few, after I learned how to correct it and how to avoid it, it very rarely happens [about as often as a Cxxx lens accidentally firing off when it is being handled off the camera.].
I know you loves you camera, but accept the fact that compared to other MF cameras at that time, the only things that kept it competitive were the price, the bellows, parallax correction bar in the view finder, and the interchangeable lenses. Even Mamiya dropped it to concentrate on the MF SLRs and RFs.
Steve
Find yourself a Mamiya C220 or C330 and as my wife says"Be Happy". With either one you will have some very fine lenses. Especially the later black ones, but the older chromes are very nice also. One thing the Mamiya TLR's have that other TLR's don't, is the ability to do beautiful macro shots. I still think they are the best "bang for the buck" out there and they are not scarce as hens teeth either. I have owned and used almost all brands of medium format cameras and still own Rollei, Pentax, Yashica and just sold my Mamiya M645 1000S outfit, but if I were to just start out I'd look for a C330F and "Be Happy". JohnW
in that price range, i would look for an mpp microcord. it's a british camera.
other than that, an older rolleiflex or rolleicord in good condition would be nice. maybe a zeiss ikon ikoflex? i kinda like the looks of the mamiya m645 1000s, and even a pentacon six tl would be pretty cool.
All good choices for you.
YET ANOTHER OPINION
Take all opinions with a grain of salt... in the opinion of someone whose first camera was a TLR about 28 years ago (!!), and whose had pretty much every brand of medium and large format camera and accessory - I'd say - it's very ARBITRARY (i.e. doesn't matter so much). It's quite honestly a fashion issue. What do you like? What are you attracted to?? Different cameras will affect the way you see and the way you make pictures in very different ways. You should probably try a little of this and a little of that. A friend asked me the same question when she entered her BFA in photography - I went with her to a pawnshop where we got an old beat up rollicord, from which she coaxed the most bewitching, gorgeous images!! A camera is a tool, don't forget. YOU are the one in control, NOT the camera. Too many people become worshippers of the 'brand cult' and that's not going to do you any favors in the way of developing an eye. Shooting film is. Lots of it. Save your money - get something you like and you think is 'smart' or 'cute' or 'useable' that you like. A holga is fine too. Every camera has something different to offer you in terms of your education. Each tool has different pluses and minuses. I'd avoid something too finicky or feature-laden too.
Take all opinions with a grain of salt... in the opinion of someone whose first camera was a TLR about 28 years ago (!!), and whose had pretty much every brand of medium and large format camera and accessory - I'd say - it's very ARBITRARY (i.e. doesn't matter so much). It's quite honestly a fashion issue. What do you like? What are you attracted to?? Different cameras will affect the way you see and the way you make pictures in very different ways. You should probably try a little of this and a little of that. A friend asked me the same question when she entered her BFA in photography - I went with her to a pawnshop where we got an old beat up rollicord, from which she coaxed the most bewitching, gorgeous images!! A camera is a tool, don't forget. YOU are the one in control, NOT the camera. Too many people become worshippers of the 'brand cult' and that's not going to do you any favors in the way of developing an eye. Shooting film is. Lots of it. Save your money - get something you like and you think is 'smart' or 'cute' or 'useable' that you like. A holga is fine too. Every camera has something different to offer you in terms of your education. Each tool has different pluses and minuses. I'd avoid something too finicky or feature-laden too.
Do you know why you have had pretty much every brand of medium and large format camera and accessory in only 28 years, and why that makes you think the choice is a fashion issue, an arbitrary one?
Whether it's the tool or you is easily decided. Just try, say, to paint like Jan van Eijck using a paint roller.
Different cameras exist not just to provide a choice or carve up the market. So choose wisely.
Whether it's the tool or you is easily decided. Just try, say, to paint like Jan van Eijck using a paint roller.
Different cameras exist not just to provide a choice or carve up the market. So choose wisely.
Primarily because I was insecure - and was transferring my efforts into 'being an equipment geek' when I should have been making negatives (and more importantly, prints) and shooting and shooting exploring and shooting. I refer to fashion because both have the same ends. Let's face it. People do both because they are more concerned with impressing other people (their peers) than they are with seriously developing their 'eye' (which is to say their 'mind'). Look here and in other photo forums. How much effort is expended talking about 'toys' vs examining and analysing images (either their own or those of others')? I've been guilty of it though, hell yes. I'll be the first to admit it.Do you know why you have had pretty much every brand of medium and large format camera and accessory in only 28 years, and why that makes you think the choice is a fashion issue, an arbitrary one?
I bet van eyck could have done incredible things with a paint roller. It's about the MIND behind the brush... not the end product being specifically this way or that way. What is 'development as an artist' other than looking at the fruits of your labor, adjusting your methods and moving on...? But like I said before - yes - trying out different types of camera is totally useful. It will help you see different things in different ways. It will help you 'calibrate' things a little. I remember selling cameras when I was 20 or so - and I remember advising people to just get one lens,no filters, no gimmicks and stick with it and SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT. I guess I'd still stand by that. People get way too distracted by the hardware, in my opinion... and again, I include myself in that too. I'm no stranger to GAS or distractions...
I just picked up a little 6x9 folder, a Wirgin Auta, for $25. I haven't shot anything with it yet, but I've already fallen in love with the camera. Check out 120 folders if nothing else.
I agree, Sparky, that people get far too distracted by hardware.
Which is why i think the usual "it's the artist, not the tool" thingy is rather silly.
It's as little about the artist as it is about the tool. A tool is an extension of the artist's own legs, arms, fingers, and what else he/she might use to produce something out of something. A a prosthesis meant and used to overcome the artist's personal insufficiencies.
Tools are there, because we need them.
And we should know what we need, and select the proper tool accordingly.
Going through every thing available displays, i think, a blatant lack of knowing what you (= the general "you") want, a lack of knowing how to create what you want, a lack of knowing what you need to enable you to create what you want.
So no, van Eijck would have done very badly using a roller. He needed the fine brushes he did select as tool to do what he wanted to do.
He chose wisely, knowing what he needed to do what he wanted.
The OP should do the same.
"One lens, no filters, no gimmicks and stick with it and SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT" sounds like a therapeutic exercise, aimed at curing GAS.
But it is not what the OP needs. Know what you want. Know what you need. Know (and that's where this thread comes in) what is available to help you.
Then you may well have to choose only once in your entire photographic life.
Which is why i think the usual "it's the artist, not the tool" thingy is rather silly.
It's as little about the artist as it is about the tool. A tool is an extension of the artist's own legs, arms, fingers, and what else he/she might use to produce something out of something. A a prosthesis meant and used to overcome the artist's personal insufficiencies.
Tools are there, because we need them.
And we should know what we need, and select the proper tool accordingly.
Going through every thing available displays, i think, a blatant lack of knowing what you (= the general "you") want, a lack of knowing how to create what you want, a lack of knowing what you need to enable you to create what you want.
So no, van Eijck would have done very badly using a roller. He needed the fine brushes he did select as tool to do what he wanted to do.
He chose wisely, knowing what he needed to do what he wanted.
The OP should do the same.
"One lens, no filters, no gimmicks and stick with it and SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT" sounds like a therapeutic exercise, aimed at curing GAS.
But it is not what the OP needs. Know what you want. Know what you need. Know (and that's where this thread comes in) what is available to help you.
Then you may well have to choose only once in your entire photographic life.
I went through the same process about 6 months ago for my first medium format camera. After all the research, thinking, posting, reading, arguing with myself, etc, I ended up with more confusion than anything else. Perhaps the only gain I had was that I wanted an SLR type.
In the end, I picked one based on local availability. Mamiya M645Super was what I bought. Pieces are plentiful, pieces are pretty much inter-changeable, and mostly, they are reasonably priced.
I like gears. No matter what I get, I'd want more and different. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. For me, first choice is never perfect. There's always better. Then there is a classified section.
In the end, I picked one based on local availability. Mamiya M645Super was what I bought. Pieces are plentiful, pieces are pretty much inter-changeable, and mostly, they are reasonably priced.
I like gears. No matter what I get, I'd want more and different. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. For me, first choice is never perfect. There's always better. Then there is a classified section
.I did a lot of looking at pictures on flickr, not necessarily the best art, but helpful seeing what average results look like. Hasselblads always make pretty decent pictures, there's no way around it. But the pictures I've seen from the Mamiya TLR 80mm black lens are just as good. I mean, I don't think you can tell the difference, and I looked at a lot.
But say the Mamiya is 90% as good as the Hasselblad. It's also less than 50% the price, and lenses are much, much cheaper.
Also for portraiture, the Mamiya has no mirror to get in the way.
The bad news: I'm on my third camera. I bought one on ebay with a bunch of lenses a couple of years ago, and the aperture rings were totally stuck and I ended up returning it. I recently bought a 2nd one on ebay, billed as mechanicall functional and clean, and it was neither.
So finally, after getting my money back, I ended up ordering a bargain C330 and an excellent 80mm lens from KEH. I'm looking forward to it. About $360 american with a lens hood and postage.
I have a Yashica 124. Honestly I think the lens is less than adequate for a lot of things. I've taken some decent pictures with it, but it's a low performer I think and has none of the magic of a finer lens.
Well, you do not want to use flickr (or even the APUG galleries) as the way to judge... the downsizing and pixelation tends to make everything look equally bad. (Some would say "equally good" but I tell you, the crap that I see on my screen is nowhere near the impact of an actual analogue print)
I am sure there are APUG folks in your area who may have some work with these cameras, which you can look at. But generating your own output with different gear and looking at it through your own eyes... priceless.
But again... there's no shortcut to using your own experience to decide which tool is best for you. People can only tell you what is good for their photography.... not yours.
When I started my medium format odyssey, I knew very well what the reputations were. Indeed the reputations were somewhat consistent with my own findings, but I also had some very nice surprises.
I am sure there are APUG folks in your area who may have some work with these cameras, which you can look at. But generating your own output with different gear and looking at it through your own eyes... priceless.
But again... there's no shortcut to using your own experience to decide which tool is best for you. People can only tell you what is good for their photography.... not yours.
When I started my medium format odyssey, I knew very well what the reputations were. Indeed the reputations were somewhat consistent with my own findings, but I also had some very nice surprises.
Keith I definitely disagree. Flickr is as good as anything else. They tell you at least what's possible with a camera. You can also see what's weak. If you look at a lot of pictures you definitely get the feeling for different lenses.
This photographer, for instance, makes amazing use of the 80mm TLR lens. Not necessarily the most interesting subject matter but technically he's nailing a lot of shots:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/louobedlam/4420177341/in/faves-paulmcevoy/
You can also see people doing stuff with the cameras you have, that's better than your stuff, and it might help you to see your equipment in a different light. For instance this guy rocks his Yashica TLR, makes me wonder whether I should stick with mine. I think I have pretty good reasons to want to move on but this guy is taking amazing pictures with his:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/suhaimisalleh/4490069892/in/faves-paulmcevoy/
This photographer, for instance, makes amazing use of the 80mm TLR lens. Not necessarily the most interesting subject matter but technically he's nailing a lot of shots:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/louobedlam/4420177341/in/faves-paulmcevoy/
You can also see people doing stuff with the cameras you have, that's better than your stuff, and it might help you to see your equipment in a different light. For instance this guy rocks his Yashica TLR, makes me wonder whether I should stick with mine. I think I have pretty good reasons to want to move on but this guy is taking amazing pictures with his:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/suhaimisalleh/4490069892/in/faves-paulmcevoy/
I agree that Flickr is as good as anything else... on your computer screen (though is it?).
Keith is right: the screen is not capable of showing what a system is capable of.
Keith is right: the screen is not capable of showing what a system is capable of.
NOT to take things off topic - but reading Keith's post reminded me of an all-pervasive problem in today's digital world... that the internet, wonderful democratic medium that it is - reduces all attempts at perfection and finesse to a 640x480 grid of values. It's absurd. I have a gallery here in Los Angeles - and I have to say it's amazing - we've had some REALLY exceptional, mind blowingly well-made prints in here - and people seem to just gloss over them. The height of this insanity came when I had some really beautifully executed oil paintings in a show here and a few people asked me 'what photoshop filter' the person used... ugh! I guess there's a thread I should add my comments to on here somewhere rather than this one...!
Well, I have to disagree back at ya!
You can see some differences between different kinds of gear, but... sharpness and contrast? Tonality? Colour rendition? Nah.
I said that on the another thread here and i will say it again:
"Hasselblad all the way"
"Hasselblad all the way"
Ok we'll agree to disagree then. I see all of those things. If you couldn't, then if you were only going to take pictures for the web, you could use a brownie for everything. And if you are printing digitally, you still have to be able to see all those things on a monitor.
A picture with sharpness problems is generally fairly obvious to me even in small sizes. Obviously it becomes more obvious as you blow it up but I think a fundamentally sharp picture is going to look different at any size than a dull one.
Stroking an Ebony 45SU is even more harmful... and then there's the Cooke PS945 lens... Mmmmmm...
Sparky, I think you offer some excellent advice, as well as some insight that some of us are unwilling to confess: That a better camera -- or even a different camera -- will somehow make us better photographers.
However, I will say that one of the keys to great photography is not having to fight the equipment. Once you reach a comfort level with your gear, then you spend less time on the mechanical process and more time taking photos. Which is how it should be.
However, I will say that one of the keys to great photography is not having to fight the equipment. Once you reach a comfort level with your gear, then you spend less time on the mechanical process and more time taking photos. Which is how it should be.
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