1st Medium Format Camera Recommendations

mcgrattan · Apr 22, 2010

Occasionally Rolleiflexes come up around the 100 pound mark. Older post-war models, that is [but not Es or Fs which are usually quite a lot more]. Other TLRs come up in that price range often. In the SLR range, I paid around 100 for the Salyut-C I used to have. Soviet 'Hasselblad' copies don't have the best reputation for reliability, but mine worked perfectly well for several years. I solid it because I wasn't shooting it much anymore. Bronica ETRSs sometimes show up around 100 - 150 quid, from dealers.

I wouldn't personally go with a folder. They are nice things, but less versatile, I think, than a TLR or SLR type. But that's just for me, your mileage may vary.

fshmstr · Apr 22, 2010

A strong vote for a Rolleicord V or similar. These are very small, very light, and very quiet. Unobtrusive for urban street shooting. You will be limited to one lens, which can be good. One camera, one lens, compose and expose.

For a system camera, try Mamiya m645.

If you gotta have a range finder, the unorthodox 6x7 Omega Rapid 100/200. Ergonomically perfect. A bit heavy and ugly, very under rated.

These should all be within your price range. Stay away from anything that was used by a pro, they worked them hard.

R gould · Apr 22, 2010

If you are just looking to try m.f. then either an old folder,some of them are very good value and very cheap, and can give great results, I know as I use them a lot, and even with a triplet lens stop it down to 8 and it's great, or4 there are some bargains in tlrs, I have a Weltyaflex i got for arounjd 30 pounds,and I get great results, pin sharp,in fact I spent this morning ptinting from a 50's folder, a ross ensign 12/20,Richard

Ric Trexell · Apr 22, 2010

Don't worry about price in the long run.

When talking about price of these MF cameras, I would not worry too much as they all (the quality cameras) will retain their value over the next few years I believe. These all are values because they have dropped in price mainly due to the digital revolution, and the economy. A $300-$400 camera like a Mamiya RB67 Pro S is a great place to start if you are not turned off by the weight and size. These should be worth that in another year and you can sell it on ebay or trade it in for a TLR and get a good price I would think. So don't let the high prices of a Hassy or Mamiya scare you off. All you are really losing is the interest on that money. You might want to try things like strobes and such but those will be usable on the next camera you purchase. I would stay away from the less popular old folders, but there again you will be paying less no doubt. Remember too that many of these are mechanical cameras and you won't have to worry about a circuit board not being available in 10 years, or not being able to get a battery for the thing.

Q.G. · Apr 22, 2010

One easy way to spend too much money is to buy a cheap thing to try, find it's not the thing for you, get another cheap thing, again find it is not for you, then get [etcetera]
It's cheaper to save up a bit and spend more on one carefully selected camera. You could use the time needed to save up to investigate what machine would fit you best.

Sirius Glass · Apr 22, 2010

jmal said:
I don't understand the notion that C330s have a high fiddle factor. I think Hasselblads have just as much fiddle factor.

On the Mamiyaflex some lenses cock with the film advancement and others do not, changing lenses has more steps than any other MF camera, ... and that is just the starters.

... dim viewfinders also comes to mind.

pantelis adiavastos · Apr 22, 2010

bronica etr series is also very good. i have an etrs, which is also digital ready. lenses are also very good.
and they also offer a grip which is very very very usefull for handheld use.

you can check out their specs at the tamron site. simply google bronica

jmal · Apr 23, 2010

Nice photo, Kal. Sirius, I have a C220 and cocking the shutter separately is no big deal. It's right next to my left thumb and takes less than a second to cock. Changing lenses is no big deal either. The C220 does have a dim viewfinder, but so do earlier Blads (my 500c is just as dim) and nearly all OE Rollei screens. Overall, I think the C series are good cameras. I would prefer to have something a little snazzier, but it's not in the cards at the moment. I bought a few Rolleiflexes and all had problems that warranted their return. I have a 500c, but no lenses of my own, so it's waiting. To the OP, my first MF was a Mamiya 645 and I really never got along with it. Others love them, but they're not for me. As others have mentioned, RB67s are nice and very affordable. They are heavy, though, and IMO require a tripod for practical use. Just depends on what you need for your purposes.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Apr 23, 2010

Buying a camera with someones advice is useless.
Start from selecting a lens.
I like Zeiss Triotar on Rolleicord , May be You will like Pentax lens more.
Make a list of suggested cameras which you can buy and start to surf the X camera gallery for Example Triotar gallery.
I am sure you will grasp what you like after this research.
Look at the cameras design , I personally love mamiya lens but never liked its look and will never use.
Selecting lens and the design fashion are the most important things.

2F/2F · Apr 23, 2010

I suggest a Mamiya or Pentax 645.

2F/2F · Apr 23, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
On the Mamiyaflex some lenses cock with the film advancement and others do not, changing lenses has more steps than any other MF camera, ... and that is just the starters.

... dim viewfinders also comes to mind.

Some bodies cock the lenses. Others do not.

Changing lenses is a matter of turning a knob and lifting a spring. It is faster than changing an SLR lens IME. One hand turns knob, other hand lifts spring and pulls lens off, do it in reverse, and it is done. You can even remove the lock if you want to, eliminating the need to turn the knob.

The fiddliness of these cameras is there, but it is not extreme, and it is located in pretty much every area other than the ones you mentioned...the most important of which are simply changing your aperture and shutter speed, which is just like doing so on a large format lens.

Hasselblads and Mamiyas are fine. I would not use either if you are technically inept, however. Too much fiddliness with both of them. I'd go for a cheap Japanese 645, most of which operate pretty simply. The simplest of all full-featured system 645s, IMO, is the Mamiya M645 from the '70s, before exchangeable magazines were introduced. The only thing different than a 35 in practical use is loading the film. No backs, no dark slides, no setting the shutter speed on the lens.

The only reason I would not suggest one of these as a good first MF is if you use a lot of outdoor fill flash. In that case, try to get a camera with a leaf shutter.

blind_sparks · Apr 23, 2010

Ah, the dreaded middle format.

The Mamiya RB/RZ and C TLRs are all good cameras. One of their best feature IMHO: the massive amount of bellows draw one can get. Unwieldy with the C-series albeit, but if you have the patience you can definitely do some great close-up work with them. They are huge though, compared to a Hasselblad or a Rollei. I bought a C330 a while back do do street photography with. The wastelevel finder was too much of a hassle for me though, and I hated composing in square, not to mention backwards. Too heavy IMHO, and not terribly convenient if you like to move while taking photos.

My suggestion is to go with the Japanese made Rolleiflex clones. Yashica-mats and Minolta Auto-cords can be found for relatively little, and have great lenses. Small and light as well. Most of them that I have had were obtained for around $50-100.

film_man · Apr 23, 2010

chris00nj said:
When he said "cheap as a Holga", i think he meant it in terms of quality. Holgas have the unique mix of being cheap in quality, but not cheap in price.

Quality or not, a £100 budget is still £100 and in the UK it will just about get you a a beat-up TLR. You could also get a folder or some of the soviet imitations but any of the 645 Bronica/Mamiya/Pentax mentioned are well out of budget!

Brian Legge · Apr 23, 2010

At least in the US, I've seen Rolleicord IVs in decent condition go for less than Autocords. The Yashica-mats and Rolleicords go for similar prices.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a Rolleicord IV for $35 as my first medium format camera a few months ago. It has its issues, but it made me realize how much I adore the quiet, light, discrete nature of it. I can throw it in a small back with a little 35mm rangefinder, a few rolls of film and have a great time walking around taking pictures. The pair is great for street photography. The pair is small enough that I can carry them around on the off chance I find something I want to photograph.

I recently picked up an SQ-A. My very first thought 'good lord this is loud'. I appreciate the flexibility, but taking it out is a serious commitment to take pictures. It isn't something I'd carry with me casually.

That's all part of the reason why the 'what do you want out of it/what do you want to photograph' question is critical. For me, a TLR turned out to be a great fit. If your subjects are different - if you are more into landscape for example - my suggestions may be totally counterproductive for you.

Necator · Apr 23, 2010

martinsmith99 said:
I'm thinking about moving to MF an looking for an ideal 1st camera. Nothing as cheap as a Holga, but something reasonably priced (around 100gbp) to get me started. It's main usage would be landscapes & urban photography and maybe portraiture.

I'm open to any suggestions from any types of camera (TLR, RF, whatever).

Thanks

By now, you have been given a ton of suggestions, many of which are outside your price range. Unless you are extremely lucky, the cheapest medium format SLR will cost around 200 gbp in the UK (eg a Bronica ETRS from Ffordes). The Mamiya RB67 starts around 300 GBP and Hasselblads are even pricier.

If you want to go really low cost, get a folder, e.g. an Agfa Isolette. Just make sure there are no light leaks in the bellow. They are fun to shoot with, but not the easiest, as you need to estimate the distance to your subject (no range finder or focusing aids). You are likely to find one cheaper than a Holga, and it is a much better camera.

dannynono · Apr 23, 2010

I don't speak up much around this forum, but if I may ... I'd say that you've got a decent budget, so your choice really depends what your style of photography is and what you want to achieve with med format.

If you want to shoot like you would with a 35mm SLR (albeit a tad slower) then stick to Mamiya/Hassy/Bronica/Pentax with a prism finder, or perhaps a Med Format RF (mamiya 6 or 7). If you want to slow the process down further then use a waist-level finder, or look for a good TLR.

For me, the fussier the camera - the better - so I shoot with a Mamiya C220 (used to shoot with an old Ciro-flex). I have to pay more attention to composition when I also have to factor in hand-held metering, cocking the shutter, advancing the film, etc., but YMMV. I've had a Bronica ETRSi and the Mamiya 645 (but with Prism finders) so they were too much like shooting with an SLR for my sensibilities. Lately, I've been looking at some of the Hasselblads up for sale and will probably end up buying one sooner or later, but with a waist level finder to keep the process somewhat slower.

dnk512 · Apr 23, 2010

Many years back I was exactly where you are now. I opted for a Yashinon TLR. The image quality got me hooked. The camera developed frame spacing issues, so I tried the Rokkor on the Minolta Autocord. I found the size and build of the camera wonderful. Many-many years later, I now have several folders (4.5x6, 6x6, 6x9, no RF, coupled and uncoupled RFs), a Wista with several backs (4x5, 5x7 and 6x7-120)and a Hasselblad system with lenses, finders, extensions etc. I have even started making my own cameras by putting together parts of broken folders. In addition, I own(ed) DSLR (perfect for sports), EVIL and point and shoots (gave to my kids).

I am willing to part/upgrade every single camera in my collection, except any of my 3 Autocords. One is with me 95% of the time. It travels oversees, hikes on mountains, goes everywhere. One is in great shape but I am rebuilding and one is a bargain user I keep for parts.

So, after the long introduction, here is my 2c:
Get a lightly used TLR (Autocord is my top choice). Shoot it on a tripod (or any solid support) to establish output quality. (So far you budget covers)... If you like what you see, you will have it CLAed, re-cover it, upgrade the focusing screen, get a hood, get some filters for it and have a blast with the inverted image. Some day you may have a medium format 'system', but you will always have the TLR.

Edit: I realize that every time there are positive posts for the Autocord, its *bay price goes up. Sorry. I am not selling any of mine (my user id here is the same as on *bay).

r1ma · Apr 23, 2010

I have no idea what they cost in the UK, but early this year I picked up a Mamiya M645 w/ a prism finder, 220 insert, 80/2.8 lens, and a motor winder for US$100. Add a 120 insert for US$10 and I just picked up a 150mm/3.5 lens for US40 and you're just about at your GBP 100 (~= US$ 150)

alroldan12 · Apr 23, 2010

Another vote for Mamiya. I've owned a 645 AF and it was a great transition from 35mm in terms of image quality. Also very portable, and very good lenses. I just purchased another Mamiya, the RZ67 for about the same money I paid for the 645 AF and the 80mm in E+ cond. The RZ67 is a great system. Go for the RB if you don't want to deal with battery issues. Bruce Barnbaum has some very impressive 16x20 prints made from 645 negatives. Good luck!

TimmyMac · Apr 23, 2010

I bought an RZ67 kit (body, 110/2.8, 120 back, 220 back, RB metered prism) for around 100gbp equivalent by stalking KEH for a while and buying 'ug' or 'needs refoam' condition stuff. I'd say that's your best bet, if they ship to GBR for a reasonable price. To be honest my 'ug' body is at least what I expected 'bgn' to be, if not better.

Otherwise pick up an older 6x6 or 6x9 folder. The Russian copies of German cameras made in the 50s and 60s are nice, and much cheaper than 'the real deal' which are out of your 100gbp criteria. The most usable ones are the coupled rangefinder models like the Moskva-5 (6x9) or Iskra (6x6). Lenses are all Zeiss copies, so they are quite good.

martinsmith99 · Apr 23, 2010

UK is a bit dearer but I've taken on board the comments and Mamiya seems the way to go (probably 645 Pro TL). Looks like I'll have to at least double the original budget.

Thanks for the recommendations.

lxdude · Apr 23, 2010

A good point, TimmyMac. KEH's "As-is" section often has cameras which have as their only stated defect that they need new foam, and may even be in BGN or EX condition otherwise. Their rating system is mainly on cosmetic condition, with the item in operable condition except as stated. I have also gotten cosmetically nice but inoperable stuff from their "as-is"dept. that didn't take much to get working, so that can happen too. I got one inoperable machine once to mess with to see if I wanted to attempt a repair on the one I already have. I quickly decided to not attempt it, and had a pro do it.

Martin, I think revising the budget is wise for what you seem to be thinking of getting. All part of the learning experience! You're still going to be happy with your choice to go over to the dark slide.

keithwms · Apr 23, 2010

martinsmith99 said:
UK is a bit dearer but I've taken on board the comments and Mamiya seems the way to go (probably 645 Pro TL). Looks like I'll have to at least double the original budget.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Do consider the 645 pro very carefully. I don;t remember the specific reasons why, but after I laid out all the specs for all the 645 cameras, the pro was the best option for me. It's been a while so I don't remember the relative strengths and weaknesses of each model, just know that there are some significant issues that may or may not affect you.

Keith

Thingy · Apr 26, 2010

For some comparison, the Mamiya RB67 with back and standard lens weighs around the same as my Ebony 45SU body weighing in at some 2.6Kg, whilst the RZ67 is some 2.4Kg.

Out of interest, what does a Hassleblad 503 model camera with A12 back and standard 80mm lens weigh?

I am interested as I wish to take a lighter MF camera with my LF outfit, purely for macrophotography, as it might be easier to use that my Ebony, at low level (cussing my arthritis).... or am I deluding myself?

keithwms · Apr 26, 2010

If weight is the concern, Thingy, then there are plenty of much lighter options. Given your macro interests, I'd say check out the 645 pro (or similar) and the 80/4 macro lens. That is my traveling macro kit. Also, when you say low level, I assume you mean (there was a url link here which no longer exists) kind of thing, i.e., on the ground, which is easy with waist level My little pro is my crawl-on-the-ground-with-the-bugs camera.

Regarding the inevitable discusson of what size prints you can generate from 645, well that is a non issue. With the films and lenses we have these days and good technique, you can go arbitrarily large. When OOF transitions and b&w tonality and groudn glass composition are key, I prefer larger formats, but 645 and 6x7/6x8 surprise the snot out of me all the time. I mean, I think (there was a url link here which no longer exists) lotus petal shot enlarges very smoothly, and could go way past 11x14... and it wasn't even one of the miracle films, it was neopan 400....

1st Medium Format Camera Recommendations

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