14x17 Gum Over Cyanotype

[Andrew O'Neill]

Dragged my 14x17 over to Riverview grounds, to photograph some ultra-large format pinholes images on XRAY film, of the Centre Lawn Bld, and a bush that I affectionately call, Cousin It. It took me almost three weeks to complete this video, due to factors beyond my control... Anyway, at the end of the day (three weeks!) I was able to make a gum over cyanotype from one of the negatives.

 

[koraks]

Very nice video once again, Andrew. I especially enjoyed the last part when you made the print - but I suppose my interest is mostly in printmaking to begin with!

I might have to (re)try gumovers one of these days. Thanks for inspiring me to consider this once more

 

[nmp]

Nice video, once more. I see you are very fond of this location - is this an abandoned/closed place? Would be interesting to get inside and take some pictures.

Another question that I have been meaning to ask of folks who do gum over cyano - why do cyano and not just another blue or cyan gum layer. Seems to me you are adding a weak link in the print - stability wise. If you are making the effort, why not just make all gum process.

Secondly, I notice that you are using a single negative for all three layers - so you are basically making a monochrome print adding three colors together. Was that the intention or did you use some variations in exposure to get a subtle split tone of some sort - I couldn't judge from the video.


:Niranjan.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Nice video, well-made negatives and a lovely result!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Nice video, once more. I see you are very fond of this location - is this an abandoned/closed place? Would be interesting to get inside and take some pictures.

Another question that I have been meaning to ask of folks who do gum over cyano - why do cyano and not just another blue or cyan gum layer. Seems to me you are adding a weak link in the print - stability wise. If you are making the effort, why not just make all gum process.

Secondly, I notice that you are using a single negative for all three layers - so you are basically making a monochrome print adding three colors together. Was that the intention or did you use some variations in exposure to get a subtle split tone of some sort - I couldn't judge from the video.


:Niranjan.

Cyanotype is hardly a weak link. I feel it holds more detail. One negative only. That was the intention, yes. I like the results. When I make actual tri-colour I'll use separation negatives.
Riverview grounds is a few minutes away by car. Some of the buildings are not used. Several new facilities have opened. It's a huge area. The building in the video (Centre Lawn) is used by Hollywood a lot. The same with several other buildings there. The South Lawn building is boarded up. There is no way in. Security is very tight. I would like to see the inside, but only if wearing Hazmat suit, due to aspestos. Besides all the interesting buildings here, there are many interesting trees, too.

 

[koraks]

why do cyano and not just another blue or cyan gum layer. Seems to me you are adding a weak link in the print - stability wise.

Quite the opposite IMO:
* Blueprints have been proven by the test of time to be very stable.
* As @Andrew O'Neill said, they render a lot of detail
* They easily (far more easily!!) build density, which is nice in a gumover as gum really takes either a lot of layers (and a lot of work) to build serious density, or you have to apply a ridiculously high-contrast layer which in my experience tends to create a very coarse/grainy image which is not always pleasing
* I didn't do many gums, but in that limited experience, the process would become more and more challenging as you build up layers; anything beyond 3 layers for me became challenging quite quickly, partly due to registration and warping of the paper, but to a large part also due to adhesion problems with subsequent layers. I'm sure more experienced printers more easily/aptly deal with this, but I also wouldn't be surprised also for them it gets more challenging as layers build.
So in short, I think cyanotype is a very effective first layer to use indeed, in many respects.

use some variations in exposure to get a subtle split tone of some sort

That's one of the beautiful things of gum printing; you have quite a lot of liberty in determining the contrast of each layer, so rather complex multiple splits are feasible.

 

[nmp]

Cyanotype is hardly a weak link. I feel it holds more detail. One negative only. That was the intention, yes. I like the results. When I make actual tri-colour I'll use separation negatives.
Riverview grounds is a few minutes away by car. Some of the buildings are not used. Several new facilities have opened. It's a huge area. The building in the video (Centre Lawn) is used by Hollywood a lot. The same with several other buildings there. The South Lawn building is boarded up. There is no way in. Security is very tight. I would like to see the inside, but only if wearing Hazmat suit, due to aspestos. Besides all the interesting buildings here, there are many interesting trees, too.

Got it. Cyanotype offers the blue tone as well as details while the gum gives the colors but more pictorial in quality as it is somewhat limited in the resoltion capability.

For tri-color print with all analogue ULF pinhole, you would have to do three exposures with appropriate filters, right? That would be very interesting!


:Niranjan.

 

[nmp]

Quite the opposite IMO:
* Blueprints have been proven by the test of time to be very stable.
* As @Andrew O'Neill said, they render a lot of detail
* They easily (far more easily!!) build density, which is nice in a gumover as gum really takes either a lot of layers (and a lot of work) to build serious density, or you have to apply a ridiculously high-contrast layer which in my experience tends to create a very coarse/grainy image which is not always pleasing
* I didn't do many gums, but in that limited experience, the process would become more and more challenging as you build up layers; anything beyond 3 layers for me became challenging quite quickly, partly due to registration and warping of the paper, but to a large part also due to adhesion problems with subsequent layers. I'm sure more experienced printers more easily/aptly deal with this, but I also wouldn't be surprised also for them it gets more challenging as layers build.
So in short, I think cyanotype is a very effective first layer to use indeed, in many respects.



That's one of the beautiful things of gum printing; you have quite a lot of liberty in determining the contrast of each layer, so rather complex multiple splits are feasible.

Didn't see your post before posting mine. Thanks for the additional points. I will never wonder now why everyone loves to do (gum over cyanotype)s....

:Niranjan.

 

[koraks]

Oh, rest assured, by brief romance with gum was turbulent and ambivalent...I might have to revisit one day!

 

[nmp]

Oh, rest assured, by brief romance with gum was turbulent and ambivalent...I might have to revisit one day!

I have not dabbled in dichromate yet and I think I am going to keep it that way. So this is all academic for me.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have not dabbled in dichromate yet and I think I am going to keep it that way. So this is all academic for me.

Gum can be done with Diazo, instead of dichromates.

 

[nmp]

Gum can be done with Diazo, instead of dichromates.

Yes...that's an option - probably go that way if I ever get the urge to do color gum.

:Niranjan.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Gum can be done with Diazo, instead of dichromates.

Which specific chemical does Diazo refer to in the current context?

 

[koraks]

My guess would be DAS, diazostilbene, AKA 'unobtainium' unless you're willing to directly purchase a kilogram or more from China or be seriously shaken out of a lot of cash by some Italian guys for 5g.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

My guess would be DAS, diazostilbene, AKA 'unobtainium' unless you're willing to directly purchase a kilogram or more from China or be seriously shaken out of a lot of cash by some Italian guys for 5g.

Ok, there is another Diazo compound that some people recommend: Benzenediazonium, 4-(phenylamino)-, sulfate (1:1), polymer with formaldehyde (CAS 41432-19-3). Neither of them are available in India, at least easily.

 

[koraks]

Ah yes, I think I read about this. That's also not a diazo compound used in screen printing, is it? Sorry, I'm of no help in this. In any case I do think we agree that it would be nice if DAS would be easier to get, globally.

 

[nmp]

Ok, there is another Diazo compound that some people recommend: Benzenediazonium, 4-(phenylamino)-, sulfate (1:1), polymer with formaldehyde (CAS 41432-19-3). Neither of them are available in India, at least easily.

How about the stuff they make silk screens with? I have seen some folks using it with gum. That should be easy to procure:

Restricted Access 2023

www.dickblick.com

:Niranjan.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

How about the stuff they make silk screens with? I have seen some folks using it with gum. That should be easy to procure:

Restricted Access 2023

www.dickblick.com

:Niranjan.

Thanks, this looks interesting and looks like somebody has used it in gum printing:
"I use speedball diazo for gum printing. Depending on pigment, I use 0.3 to 0.5 g stock diazo solution for 10ml of gum." Was lucky to find an example print quickly on Facebook here.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

How about the stuff they make silk screens with? I have seen some folks using it with gum. That should be easy to procure:

Restricted Access 2023

www.dickblick.com

:Niranjan.

Yes, that is what I used for screen printing a few years ago when teaching my graphic design students.