127 colour film - processing as BW film

Minox · Aug 17, 2023

Hello everyone!

A friend of mine asked me to develop this film for him; it's a colour film negative, 127 format, CNS2, no idea about how old is it, when it was shot, how was it kept, nothing at all basically. Colour processing is out of question, for a number of reasons. The film is very old stock, but the photographs on it were taken recently with a KVP camera. I would assume the film is from 60s - 70s, just to be at about the half of the period it was on the market, I guess.

Now, I had my fair share of processing colour film (various formats) as BW, but at least I knew what was their story. No idea with this one, so I am asking the more knowledgeable community here to try and assist me with this, if possible. Perhaps someone recognize the roll as some type or other?

As developers go, I have quite a good selection. I'm leaning towards Rodinal (high dilution) or HC110/B, but of course other may differ.

Thank you in advance !

cmacd123 · Aug 17, 2023

CNS2 was an AGFA film that came out shortly before the advent of C-41. (bad timing for Agfa) That does not help with your question, other than to sugest that it might be closer to C-22 than C-41

rcphoto · Aug 17, 2023

I’d opt for the HC-110. That’s my go to for anything I’m unsure of.

Romanko · Aug 17, 2023

HC-110 dilution B about 9 minutes at 18 degrees Celsius. If you are lucky you might be able get some unprintable images. Otherwise, you get a blank (the film completely lost its sensitivity) or a black (fully fogged) roll. Don't waste your time on this film, there's hardly anything you can do better than this.

Cholentpot · Aug 17, 2023

Dibs on the backing paper and spool?

I've had good results with HC-110B and Rodinal 1:100 stand. I've also done it with caffeinal.

I have found though that with roll film as opposed to cassettes there's less of a chance of rescuing anything.

foc · Aug 18, 2023

If you want to try colour developing, I have read about people developing C22 and Agfa CNS in C41 BUT at 20C. Otherwise, the normal 38C will melt the emulsion.

C41 developer at 20C for 20 mins was suggested as a starting point.

The video title below is incorrectly titled (IMO) because it suggests that Agfa CNS is the same as Kodak C22, which was not the case although since both processes are obsolete, CNS and C22 films can be developed in C41 in a similar fashion as suggested in the video.

Don_ih · Aug 18, 2023

As @foc said, this might work better developed in cold C41. If you do that, you get the advantage of being able to skip the bleach step and just fix the film, which may add density. It may also add a lot of fog. But you can always bleach and refix the film after, to see if that would help. So, to an extent, you get more possibilities from attempting to develop it in C41.
@koraks -- does that sound plausible to you?

Romanko · Aug 18, 2023

The development time in the video is way off. Based on Tetenal instructions for developing at 30C, 38C and 45C the times should be (minutes:seconds):

color developer: 19:15
blix: 8:18

The results in the video suggest that you'd be better off processing as black-and-white in any active developer like HC-110 (B). I did not try stand development with Rodinal. My results with compensating development (Barry Thornton's Two Bath) are inconsistent, but most of the time it works fine.

Agfa CNS process is very close to ORWO/Sovcolor. The formulas are published in multiple sources and the components are not very hard to source. Unless you have a fridge full of cold-stored Agfacolor the end results rarely worth the effort. Our member here, Vesselin, did a lot of experiments with shooting and processing expired ORWO film. Here is Vesselin's website: http://analoguephotolab.com/

bripriuk · Aug 18, 2023

If there is any image left on the film, stand development in either Rodinal or HC-110 will rescue it. Any sort of conventional or colour developing will almost certainly fail.
Brian

Romanko · Aug 18, 2023

Don_ih said:
So, to an extent, you get more possibilities from attempting to develop it in C41.

I tried exactly that with very old Kodacolor-II (C-41) film. Normal C-41 color development with BLIX replaced by Ilford Rapid Fixer for 7 minutes. The film was exposed at around EI40 (+1 stop). Basically, if it is gone, it is gone!

Digital camera scan of the negative with minimal processing (left) and conversion using Darktable Negadoctor (right).

Minox · Aug 18, 2023

Romanko said:
HC-110 dilution B about 9 minutes at 18 degrees Celsius. If you are lucky you might be able get some unprintable images. Otherwise, you get a blank (the film completely lost its sensitivity) or a black (fully fogged) roll. Don't waste your time on this film, there's hardly anything you can do better than this.

I could not refuse my friend who shot this film. Of course, I told him that chances are next to none of getting anything printable. He's ok with this.

Thank you !

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

Don_ih said:
@koraks -- does that sound plausible to you?

Yes, it does; it should work that way. With C41 developer I'd aim for a rather long development time at room temperature; let's say 15 minutes or so. Skipping the bleach sounds like a good idea for sure.

Alternatively, develop in a (non-staining) B&W developer and see what comes out. If it looks sort of nice, it might be possible to bleach with a rehalogenating bleach and then redevelop in a color developer to see if some dyes are formed as well. This can result in a color image. It probably won't be qualitatively great, it interesting nonetheless. I'd scan after the inital B&W development and before further chemical experimentation by means of a backup.

Minox · Aug 18, 2023

Guys, thank you all for your valuable input. I will attempt to develop this in Rodinal 1+100, stand, 60 mins. Not sure at all about the temp. Should I do this at 18, 20, or higher than 20*C?

Thx!

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

I'd just give it a try at whatever room temperature is currently in your home

Romanko · Aug 18, 2023

koraks said:
I'd just give it a try at whatever room temperature is currently in your home

I'd try to keep it around 18 or 20 degrees as you suggested. Anyone living in Australian outback will tell you that "room temperature" is a vaguely defined term (somewhere in the range of 5 to 45 degrees Celsius).

Don_ih · Aug 18, 2023

Romanko said:
I tried exactly that with very old Kodacolor-II (C-41) film. Normal C-41 color development with BLIX replaced by Ilford Rapid Fixer for 7 minutes. The film was exposed at around EI40 (+1 stop). Basically, if it is gone, it is gone!

The film talked about here was exposed some time in the past, presumably decades ago, so this is about getting the images that are already there, not using the film. Assuming the film was exposed while fresh, loss of sensitivity doesn't matter. Age fog and mold and potential heat fog are the problems to anticipate.

@Minox -- the advantage of C41 without bleaching would be that you get whatever density comes from the colour development plus the remaining silver image. The colour would be wrong but you should be able to get a better negative for scanning b&w.

Minox · Aug 18, 2023

koraks said:
I'd just give it a try at whatever room temperature is currently in your home

With these heatwaves, I manage to keep the indoor temp between 23-25. Guess this will work.

Do I want/need to pre-soak?

Minox · Aug 18, 2023

Don_ih said:
The film talked about here was exposed some time in the past, presumably decades ago, so this is about getting the images that are already there, not using the film. Assuming the film was exposed while fresh, loss of sensitivity doesn't matter. Age fog and mold and potential heat fog are the problems to anticipate.

@Minox -- the advantage of C41 without bleaching would be that you get whatever density comes from the colour development plus the remaining silver image. The colour would be wrong but you should be able to get a better negative for scanning b&w.

don, the film has been shot quite recently, by a friend of mine, as already said.

Re colour development, this is not an option.

Don_ih · Aug 18, 2023

Minox said:
the film has been shot quite recently

Minox said:
no idea about how old is it, when it was shot, how was it kept, nothing at all basically.

I didn't notice that you then said it was exposed recently, so that's my fault.

The concerns for developing recently exposed very old film are very different from those for developing old film exposed when fresh. The likelihood is, unless your friend exposed this at iso3, there is nothing on the film to develop.

koraks · Aug 18, 2023

, post: 2713409, member: 100555"]
With these heatwaves, I manage to keep the indoor temp between 23-25. Guess this will work.

Do I want/need to pre-soak?
[/QUOTE]
Sounds good. Presoak probably won't make much of a difference one way or another.

Romanko · Aug 18, 2023

I agree. There is no point in pre-soaking if you are going for 60 minutes stand development. The original Agfa process worked at around 24 degrees so you should be OK with your temperature range.

Minox · Aug 18, 2023

Appreciated, thank you !

mtnbkr · Aug 18, 2023

FWIW, and this was my first attempt at such, I just developed an old roll of Kodacolor II in 620 format that was probably exposed in the early 80s. It came with an old camera I just bought. I used Legacy L110 at Dilution B at 75degF (ambient temp). I used a 2min presoak in plain water, then developed for 7 minutes with agitation every minute for 5 seconds. I used plain water as my stop bath and Ilford Rapid Fixer at 4:1 for the fixing stage.

What came out looks overdeveloped, but I can see images on about half the frames (with the other half being blank (possibly accidentally exposed because the roll wasn't tight when I got it). I have a 2nd roll I'm going to try at Dilution H for longer and with less agitation to see if it works any better. This is all new to me and the outcome isn't critical, so I'm just kind of winging it.

Chris

Paul Howell · Aug 18, 2023

As color film has less silver than B&W I would use Rodinal or HC 110 at 1:100, agitate for 30 seconds then put it in back of a refrigerator for 24 hours and let go to max density then print grade 00, if there is a usable image.

Cholentpot · Aug 18, 2023

Paul Howell said:
As color film has less silver than B&W I would use Rodinal or HC 110 at 1:100, agitate for 30 seconds then put it in back of a refrigerator for 24 hours and let go to max density then print grade 00, if there is a usable image.

I've done the overnight cold method. It's strange and it works.

127 colour film - processing as BW film

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