120 films development problem

[Aurelien]

Well, for a few days, I have a problem with developing 120 films: On each film, I have round traces of irregular development at the upper top of the film, in contact with my paterson reel. I had this problem with two types of films: Foma 100 and FP4+.. I Develop 3 films at once and all films show this problem.
What do you think about that? How can I do to resolve this issue?
Thanks for your answers.

 

[clogz]

There could be various reasons for that, I think. It would help if you could scan that bit of film and show us.

Hans

 

[glbeas]

My first thought would be air bubbles because of the location. If you can scan the neg and post an image here so we can evaluate it we can come closer to solving the problem.

 

[Konical]

Bon Soir, Aurelien,

There was a recent thread here on APUG which dealt specifically with your problem, and lots of entries were contributed. Basically, the problem you have is common with plastic reels. You might try inverting the tank AND spinning the reels during agitation. The better solution is to forget the plastic and start using SS reels. Again, we've had a lot of posts on different brands of tanks and reels. A little Search time will be well-spent.

Konical

 

[Fotohuis]

Paterson (sys IV), Jobo (1500/2500 series), A&P (all plastic) or Kindermann (SS), ALL are suitable for processing your film.

If there is some personal preference it's OK to me but none of mentioned developer tanks are crap.

Your problem could be caused by air bubbles in the tank and this "problem" can be more severe when developing in a bigger film developing tank.
We will wait for the scan of your film and give a more precise answer to you.

In case of severe problems you can always contact us on our e-mail.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Yikes, three 120 rolls in the same can!

 

[Aurelien]

i have scanned a shoot from my contact. I have pushed a little contrast so as to show the problem: brown traces at the top of the image.

 

[Fotohuis]

Yikes, three 120 rolls in the same can!

Which is NO problem. In a Jobo 1520 developer tank with an internal liquid volume of minimum 485ml (but 500ml is also possible) you can use 2x 120 roll films, divided on one 1501 Jobo reel by the red clip. In the 1540 Jobo developer tank ( in fact a 1510+1530) you can use 2 times the 1501 reel for 120 rollfilm development: So 2x2 120 roll films on two 1501 reels. Volume needed for inverse development 975ml (but 1000ml is also possible).

In fact different films and speed is possible as long the development time is the same. E.g. Fuji Neopan 400/1600 films are made for the same development times and can be always mixed even 35mm and 120 roll films!

Best regards,

Robert

(Running with a Heiland TAS film processor for inverse development, no bubbles, Jobo 1510/1520 system and always reproducible nice results )
http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/TAS_Flyer_D.pdf

The system will also work even with a 2500 tank and a 6x 4x5" sheet film development (2509N reel).

 

[Fotohuis]

Looks like a contaminated reel or you have used not enough liquid chemicals in the tank. Take notice of the minimum volume of your Paterson tank which is slightly more than you need for a Jobo system.

In the attachment my improved version.

 

[Aurelien]

How to decontamine a reel?

 

[Fotohuis]

Put it in blix (old RA-4 or C41) and clean it with toothclean tabs afterwards.

I will put some tabs in your packages to Limoges when it's going out and if you want I can sent you some old blix (destination chemical disposal unit) either.

Quand je visite la cité de Limoges, peut etre cette prochain vacances en France. Ce n'est pas impossible que nous boivons une bonne verre de vin en terasse .

Cordialement,

Robert

 

[clogz]

Using a dash of ordinary household bleach in some not too hot water works great as well.

Hans

 

[j-fr]

More and better aggitation!

i have scanned a shoot from my contact. I have pushed a little contrast so as to show the problem: brown traces at the top of the image.

Looks like air-bubbles. More aggitation, and tap the tank on the table. Or use an old Cibachrome motor for constant rotation during the developing - reverse the direction every 60 seconds.

j-fr

www.j-fr.dk

 

[Aurelien]

No problem: if you come and I am here it will be with great pleasure to drink a glass of wine or beer

Thanks for the blix. I send you an email for the acros

 

[Ian Grant]

Others have said it looks like air bubbles. This can be a problem even with a well filled tank particularly if there is wetting agent in the developer, there is a tendency for foaming/bubbles which stay at the top edges of the reel.

I've had this problem myself with Paterson tanks, the solution is less vigorous inversion agitation to prevent the foaming. It is known to be a problem and the usual recommendation is gently tapping the tank after each inversion cycle. Take care doing this I once had a tank with 7 35mm films split.

Ian

 

[kraker]

Looks like a contaminated reel or you have used not enough liquid chemicals in the tank. Take notice of the minimum volume of your Paterson tank which is slightly more than you need for a Jobo system.

When I first started developing 120, I had a similar problem. In my case, yes, I did use a bit more than the minimum volume of liquid, but I didn't take into account that without a "spacer", there is still room for the reel to move up, if you shake a bit too hard. I'm not 100% sure that was the problem, but after I cut a 35mm film canister into a "ring" to keep the reel in place (can't move higher, where there's no liquid), I haven't had the problem anymore.

(Am I making sense? If not, I can take a picture of my "modification" and put it here. Let me know.)

 

[Dave Miller]

I’ve suffered this annoying problem before and came to the conclusion that it resulted from my previously using a rinse aid in the final wash, and my not washing the reels afterwards. This creates excessive foaming in the developer that results in air bubbles that no amount of tank rapping will dislodge. I take extra care to wash reels after use, and haven’t had a reoccurrence.

 

[fidget]

Is a pre-soak recommended? Would this also help flush the tank?
I have tried this, particulary when my tank is a little cold, to attain a suitable temperature before the dev is put in. I have wondered if it can make a difference to the development.

Dave....

 

[j-fr]

It's all in the aggitation...

I’ve suffered this annoying problem before and came to the conclusion that it resulted from my previously using a rinse aid in the final wash, and my not washing the reels afterwards. This creates excessive foaming in the developer that results in air bubbles that no amount of tank rapping will dislodge. I take extra care to wash reels after use, and haven’t had a reoccurrence.

There is something in all this talk about left-over wetting agent or rinse aid that I don't understand:

1:We use wetting agent to reduce surface tension.

2: Air bubbles are the result of surface tension

So a small amount of wetting agent in the developer (and what is left on the reel after rinsing the film is a very small amount!) should help prevent airbubles. But the foam? Isn't foam just a lot of air bubbles? Yes, but very fragile and very wet bubbles. So it all comes down to aggtitation.

j-fr

www.j-fr.dk

 

[ricksplace]

I’ve suffered this annoying problem before and came to the conclusion that it resulted from my previously using a rinse aid in the final wash, and my not washing the reels afterwards. This creates excessive foaming in the developer that results in air bubbles that no amount of tank rapping will dislodge. I take extra care to wash reels after use, and haven’t had a reoccurrence.

I have had this exact same thing happen. I rinse the reels in hot water after use, and have not had this problem since.

 

[Dave Miller]

Is a pre-soak recommended? Would this also help flush the tank?
I have tried this, particulary when my tank is a little cold, to attain a suitable temperature before the dev is put in. I have wondered if it can make a difference to the development.

Dave....

I don't know if a pre-soak helps or not, but I always give a 5 minute pre-soak.

 

[haris]

Allways wash tanks/reels or trays after processing, it is few minutes more of work, but preventing lots of troubles later.

Allways use wetting agent in separate cannister and film out of reels. Do not let wetting agent to come in contact with reels/developing tank. Wetting agent can built onto reels and this can make two probelms:

1. Contaminate developer
2. Make loading films in reels difficult because of built residues in reels.

Next, measure precisely how much chemistry you developing tank can accept. For example, I loaded reels with notimportant film, put them into tank and filled tank with water untill it was completelly full. Then I poured water from tank into measure jugs (calibrated ones, bought from chemistry lab equipment manufacturer). When establich amount of chemistry my tank can accept I allways use that amount when process.

For example your tank can accept 500 ml of chemistry when reel with 120 film are loaded into it, in order tank to be full. So, allways use 500 ml of chemistry when processing film, and no matter what manufacturer said what minimum of chemistry is enough. Make same measuring for example for 2 reels both with 35mm films, or whatever tank/reels combination you use. With this I never had developing problems because of not enough chemistry. I had problems because I wrongly loaded two 120 films on one Jobo reel (using red separator), but I learned how to load films properly, and no problems since then...

Or, (if you reuse chemistry, not one shot) simply, when you pour your chemistry into tank pour enough chemistry from bottle to tank to be full. This way you will allways have for sure enough chemistry in tank...

 

[Bob F.]

Do not allow the wetting agent to dry on the reels, and rinse tanks and reels in hot running water for a minute or two after use. Two simple precautions that should avoid any wetting agent related problems.

About 50ml of household bleach in a normal tank filled with water and left for 15-60 minutes will do a good cleaning job of tanks and reels depending on how dirty they are. Don't do this too often though as I read that some plastics can apparently become brittle from the bleach. Jobo in particular do not recommend the use of bleach to clean their tanks, but how critical that may be is moot as I've done it several times as above on different tanks and reels without incident. Once they are clean, hot water should be all you need to keep them that way.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Dishwashing soap, hot water and a good scrub with a toothbrush.

 

[Rick Olson]

Aurelian ...

I have had the same problems with my 120 along the top of the film ... started with Paterson reels and tanks, and it was especially noticeable with EMA (extreme minimum agitation) development, but also with my standard development with agitation once a minute. I tried numerous suggestions offered from APUG and elsewhere. Rewashed the reels in hot water and the dishwasher to remove any traces of Photo-flo, made sure the developer volume was well over the reels, agitation smooth but vigorous, rapped the tank after each cycle ... no luck. Someone advised to use a steel reel system. Guess what ... that worked for the standard development but I still had some bubbles (although less) when doing my EMA development.

Well today, I tried another experiment and devised an agitation method for an EMA roll based on swirling and erratic agitation but WITHOUT ANY INVERSION. I figured that this would still produce effective replacement of the developer against the emulsion without producing any bubbles. This worked GREAT with no bubble marks on the film.

Problem solved! Good Luck.

Rick