10x8 development whats wrong now??!

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by hairyseg, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. hairyseg

    hairyseg Member

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    Sorry to be a pain! am getting very frustrated with 10X8 processing. I have read all the threads on how to and allowing for my clumsiness and ineptness have decided on drum processing due to lack of scratches etc. Have had a few practise runs on the Fomapan film i intend to use for the time being, then this turned out of the drum. (see attachments)

    My process was 5 mins pre wash, develop 8 mins ID 11 1+1, 2 mins stop, 5mins fix, using 250 ml of chemicals in jobo 2540 drum.

    The only thing I can think of is too little development? following tests showed 10 mins would have been better, however i dont think so as that would surely just show a neg lacking in contrast.??? OR Fix chemicals depleted, I made up 600 ml of ilford rapidfix, used 250 ml of solution per 2 neg batch and returned residual to original volume to replenish of sorts. Previous 4 negs show no signs of this shadow type bleeding from light to dark. Also has ayone experienced the darkening to the upper ( as it was in the tube) end of neg, ? light leak or poor placing of neg in drum.

    Having read thomas's issues with LF development I am also starting to get extremely dejected with spending hours to no avail!!!

    A medium format D*****l back is looking mighty simple compared to this constant disappointment.

    SHEN HAO 10X8 full system on EBAY soon i feel!!!
     

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  2. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I have found that Fomapan 200 (Is that what you are using?) is quite finicky in developing. I use it successfully, but I develop on hangers in tanks. It looks like you only rolled the drum in one direction. You should reverse the direction of rotation of the drum at intervals, to equalize the even-ness of development, particularly with Foma film.
     
  3. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    250ml of developer for two sheets? Single shot or?

    How did you spin the drum?

    I don't remember Ilfords claims for ID11 exactly but I think it's 125ml per 8x10 sheet. If that's right you're 1:1 is half the recommendation. I'm also not sure how well ID-11 handles drum use. Some developers have more trouble then others.
     
  4. bdial

    bdial Subscriber

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    125 ml of developer stock is close to Ilford's recommended limits (100 ml/ 8x10). Going to 300 ml of solution, or possibly even more may help. In addition to Phototone's suggestion of reversing the rotation.
     
  5. Konical

    Konical Subscriber

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    Good Morning, Hairyseg,

    I don't use the 2450 drum, so there may be something about it which would make a difference, but my first suspicion is that 250 ml/8 x 10 sheet is a rather minimal amount, I'd be more comfortable with about half again as much. As Phototone says, reversing the drum (assuming that you don't have a motor base which does that automatically) would also be a good idea.

    Konical
     
  6. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Fomapan 100 & 200 are finicky, they build up contrast very quickly so will be more to uneven development if there's problems.

    The thumbnails do show uneven development so your agitation, maybe volume of developer, is at fault. I'd suggest you try dish development it's far easier to get even development, I prefer this for my 10x8 work.

    Don't give up remember there are a graet many 10x8 and larger users getting superb results it's not that difficult :D

    Ian
     
  7. Anton Lukoszevieze

    Anton Lukoszevieze Subscriber

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    I use an 8x10 drum if I am not developing many sheets (I use trays for more). I roll the drum 360 degress gently, back and forth and quite regularly in my sink. Never had problems with uneven development that way. Works fine for Foma 100 and Efke 25. I use APH09 (original Rodinal formula) 1:20. 200 ml works fine.
    It is not hard to get good 8x10 negs, IMHO, persevere. :smile:
     
  8. OP
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    hairyseg

    hairyseg Member

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    I'm usiing Fomapan 100, 2 sheets per 250 ml single shot, Drum is on jobo processor so auto rotates and reverses. Is the concensus then more chemical. Wasn't skimping on chemicals but drum states 120 ml so doubled up. perhaps this may be the problem.

    just to confirm the shadowing is a development problem not a fix problem?

    Thanks so much for your help, I really enjoy wet processes and don't want to ajck it in, but am so fed up with producing stuff thats unusable, 120 roll film is fine.

    Thanks again.
     
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  9. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Ignore the drum. The drum is telling you the least amount of chemicals that will work in the drum. It's up to you to figure out if that amount is enough for your chemicals.

    Grab the Ilford docs and see what they recommend. Then use the greater of the Ilford requirement or the drum requirement.

    One issue is the print drums aren't really intended for this use so if you put too much chemicals in it's a pain. You might have to stick to one sheet or go to stock isn't of 1:1.
     
  10. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    250ml/8x10 is an adequate amount of developer - equal to 8oz for a single reel of 35mm film.

    If you are using a rapidly oxidizing developer like Pyro then this may not be enough because the air surface/volume ratio in a drum is very high and the developer will oxidize as you are processing.

    The problem you show is bromide drag due to laminar flow. The developer is producing bromide developing the highlights, and bromide restrains development. The areas above the pilings are lighter because the less restrained (less bromide) developer was more active in these bands. The very even agitation allows the bromide to build up in the developer volume over the highlight areas. This is very apparent in these shots because the pilings are in the same direction as the movement of the developer over the film. Some of this effect may be due to developer depletion, for the same reasons as above.

    Better agitation is the fix. If the drum isn't reversing direction then the flow will be very regular and you will build up bands of bromide and depleted developer. Even if it is reversing you may still have too even a laminar flow. Take the drum off the base a few times during development and slosh it around.
     
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  11. Jim Noel

    Jim Noel Member

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    It definitely is bromide drag. The Jobo automatically reverses unless the operator stops it from doing so.
    I believe that volume is the culprit. I use 600 ml of developer for two sheets of 10x8. WHen referring to the quantities recommended by Jobo I always use the maximum, or slightly more.
    If you use a pyro developer such as ABC, or PMK much more is needed. There are pyro developers designed for use in rotating tubes.
     
  12. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    A lot of people use Jobo drums on the old motorized bases from Unicolor, Beseler et al..

    Some drum/base combinations don't turn far enough before reversing and a common fix is to remove the reverser and let the drum spin in one direction only.
     
  13. OP
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    hairyseg

    hairyseg Member

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    Thank you all, I feel a little foolish now, should have checked the developer volumes first, another lesson learnt. Thanks for the technical nicholas, call me old fashioned but am one of those that needs to know exactly what the problem is as much as what the cure is, really appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
     
  14. eric

    eric Member

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    I've never seen bromide drag with sheet film before. Usually I see it in sprocket holes from 35mm film and high density areas.
     
  15. Bruce Watson

    Bruce Watson Member

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    Another agreement on bromide drag. Since the processor is reversing, I think there are three things to look at: first would be processing in a film drum instead of a print drum. Next would be too low a rotational speed setting. Third would be chemical volume.

    I think all three are playing their parts. Since buying a 3005 drum is the most expensive thing to do, do it last. First add more developer. If you double the dilution of your developer, and you are using constant agitation, you increase development time by the square root of the dilution. That is, if your current time is 8 minutes, and you double dilution, your new time is (8)(sqrt(2)) = 11 1/3 minutes. This time will come down somewhat if you increase rotational speed a bit, at least to 30 rpm.

    The combination of more chemistry and more speed should increase turbulence enough to get you out of laminar flow which is what is likely causing your bromide drag problem. If the problem persists, find a 3005 drum. Make sure the drum itself is level (and get the cap on straight), not just the Jobo base. If the problem persists after this, you are either doing something really freaky, or a witch put a curse on you at some time or other. ;-)

    Just so you'll know, I use a 3010 tank on a CPP-2, at 30 rpm, and one liter of XTOL 1:3 (that's 250ml of XTOL stock and 750ml of water). I've never had anything other that perfectly smooth, perfectly consistent results. But I've been using 5x4 Tri-X and now have fully switched over to 5x4 TMY-2 (an absolutely wonderful film IMHO). Other films may behave differently and I don't have any relevant experience with them.
     
  16. Marczak

    Marczak Member

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    Hello,

    ok, so you will see, when I put scan from my 18x24 Fomapan 100 print :wink:

    Yes, it`s a bromide drag. I also need to change my development procedure, as I wait for 1,5 h ( R09 1:200 -> 9ml + 1800 ml) with stand dev., and get bromide drag :smile:

    I`ll post a scan on saturday maybye.

    Paul
     
  17. Marczak

    Marczak Member

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    ok,

    that`s a thru window view with lovely bromide drags (left side of Bastille).

    next time I`ll agitate more

    Paul
     

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  18. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

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    ..this looks to me as if the film was put in backwards in the drum.
    I dont see how this could possibly be bromide drag even though it gives that appearance. Bromide drag usually doesn't happen with very fresh chemistry and rarely in a drum. It might be possible there is some contamination occurring, either in the drum or the mixing.. also look at your drum speed. Too fast a speed will leave marks on your large format film from a drum.

    dw
     
  19. Marczak

    Marczak Member

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    or the mixing.......

    R09 1:200 in a Krokus tank 2000, for 1,5 hour stand development, and that`s the result - bromide drag. It was placed normal, but it wasn`t a rotary process.

    Next time I`ll agitate :smile:

    Paul