Some question about RA4 chemistry

[Blue Glass]

So I have used the Bellini RA4 kit before. heard kodak have better performance and is cheaper later on so I planned to check that out. It get me confused with the starter and replenisher solution, Is it possible to mix the checmical with only replenisher. cause the starter is pretty expensive. I am going to develop the paper in an open tray with room temperature for around 2 minutes. so I am think to mix around 500ml at a time and ditch them after two days.

And for the chemical, there is the single part mix and part a, b ,c mix. is there any differences on the longevity after opening them up? I plan to mix 500 ml or 1000 ml when using, but I heard the concentrated solution gets bad quickly after opening them up.

 

[koraks]

The only way to avoid using the starter is to mix the replenisher, add some water and then run a couple of square meters of exposed paper through it.

The practical and cost-effective way is to just use the starter. This is what it exists for.

 

[mshchem]

I agree with Koraks. Unfortunately Cinestill is selling starter only in a case of 6 1 liter bottles. 1 liter is enough to last most commercial labs for years since mostly they just add replenisher, can go for years without needing to empty processor and make fresh tank solutions using the starter.

 

[halfaman]

Old Kodak starter seems to add a restrainer (potassium chloride) according to the msds file.

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/msds/kodak/KODAK_EKTACOLOR_RA_Developer_Starter.pdf

Assuming that the current products are the same, you can try to complete the working solution with water instead of starter and add potassium chloride. PE formula states 1,60 grams of KCl per liter of working solution. Adjusting solution to target pH 10.04 would be a good thing.

RA4 processing formulas

These are as authentic as I can get. It took me a while. RA4 Developer Water 700.00 mL Triethanolamine 12.41 g Blankophor REU ™ (Mobay Corp.) 2.30 g Lithium polystyrene sulfonate (30%) 0.30g N,N-Diethylhydroxylamine (85%)...

www.photrio.com

 

[koraks]

I bet you could get awfully close, if not exactly the same if you use simple table salt (NaCl). Use non-iodiated salt though.

Fuji color developer starter is also something like 60g/l NaBr; not sure whether that was for RA4 or C41. I think the latter since I'd expect Cl in an RA4 starter.

 

[MattKing]

The only way to avoid using the starter is to mix the replenisher, add some water and then run a couple of square meters of exposed paper through it.

Perfect for all those contact proof sheets you have been meaning to do!

 

[originalwinslow]

Assuming that the current products are the same, you can try to complete the working solution with water instead of starter and add potassium chloride. PE formula states 1,60 grams of KCl per liter of working solution. Adjusting solution to target pH 10.04 would be a good thing.

I was told by PS (the company that currently manufactures EK chems) that starter is only water, restrainer and pH adjust. I was able to skip starter and make working solution with LORR C-41 replenisher by mixing ~50ml water with KBr and adding that to the diluted replenisher then adjusting pH. In principle the idea would be the same but with the KCl. It should get you closer to the correct mix/equilibrium without sacrificing paper.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier and more confidence inspring to just buy the starter. Ideally I'd find someone online to sell me a more reasonable quantity than 6L. 500ml would last quite a while.

 

[mshchem]

I was told by PS (the company that currently manufactures EK chems) that starter is only water, restrainer and pH adjust. I was able to skip starter and make working solution with LORR C-41 replenisher by mixing ~50ml water with KBr and adding that to the diluted replenisher then adjusting pH. In principle the idea would be the same but with the KCl. It should get you closer to the correct mix/equilibrium without sacrificing paper.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier and more confidence inspring to just buy the starter. Ideally I'd find someone online to sell me a more reasonable quantity than 6L. 500ml would last quite a while.

PSI should sell a tiny envelope with the few grams of KBr and NaCl required to make 1 liter of starter. Bring your own distilled water. They could get rich

 

[brbo]

Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier and more confidence inspring to just buy the starter. Ideally I'd find someone online to sell me a more reasonable quantity than 6L. 500ml would last quite a while.

It would last some 10 sessions based on OP's described use. That is not that long.

Maybe switching to full replenished workflow would be best if getting the starter is a problem or expensive.

 

[Rudeofus]

I bet you could get awfully close, if not exactly the same if you use simple table salt (NaCl). Use non-iodiated salt though.

Fuji color developer starter is also something like 60g/l NaBr; not sure whether that was for RA4 or C41. I think the latter since I'd expect Cl in an RA4 starter.

If you look at Kodak's color developer recipes for any process: they typically pair two restrainers of different strength to achieve both restraining action and color balance. With all the film developers I know these two restrainers are bromide and iodide, and the RA-4 formulas I am aware of combine chloride and bromide. The respective stronger restrainer is typically added in very small amounts.

Main reason color developers need both of them is, that developed products also release them, so you need to start with a balance to maintain that balance as you develop more and more product.

I would therefore assume, that RA4 starter contains both chloride and bromide in some balance. I would attempt to get a handle on starter formulation by comparing replenisher formulas with regular working solutions. Either way, a starter using mostly bromide is likely going to be made for C-41, ECN-2 or E-6.

 

[originalwinslow]

Just as a side note: If you are accustomed to using single-use kits there can be a bit of learning curve to reliably work with the commercial chems. Trying to find a workaround for the starter adds another level of complexity and might end up creating more frustration than you'd like. Not to talk you out of it, just 2 cents coming from someone who spent a lot of hours/money/gray hairs troubleshooting downstream issues from shortcuts.

But if you really want to do quantity for a lower price then it will be worth the time investment.

PSI should sell a tiny envelope with the few grams of KBr and NaCl required to make 1 liter of starter. Bring your own distilled water. They could get rich

It seems they have a prerogative to make running a replenishment system less accessible for non-commercial users. It would take me a decade to finish 6 liters of starter...

With all the film developers I know these two restrainers are bromide and iodide

Don't tell me I need to add 2mg of potassium iodide to my bootleg starter my heart can't take it

 

[mshchem]

Just as a side note: If you are accustomed to using single-use kits there can be a bit of learning curve to reliably work with the commercial chems. Trying to find a workaround for the starter adds another level of complexity and might end up creating more frustration than you'd like. Not to talk you out of it, just 2 cents coming from someone who spent a lot of hours/money/gray hairs troubleshooting downstream issues from shortcuts.

But if you really want to do quantity for a lower price then it will be worth the time investment.



It seems they have a prerogative to make running a replenishment system less accessible for non-commercial users. It would take me a decade to finish 6 liters of starter...



Don't tell me I need to add 2mg of potassium iodide to my bootleg starter my heart can't take it

My Kodak RA4 developer starter lists sodium bromide and sodium sulphite. My developer starter and bleach starter (1.2 L each) are 10 years old and still plenty to go.

Doesn't say what is in the bleach starter...

 

[DREW WILEY]

With 3-part DEV, the B component does not last as long as the other two in terms of shelf life. I don't replenish anything, but just mix enough at a time for a daily session. So "Starter" is all I use. Simpler that way, and probably more reliable. Drum dev @ 30C (83F), 2 min. I've never had good luck with "room temp". You want the temp consistent.

 

[halfaman]

The starter prices tend to be abussive nowadays for what they contain. Manufacturers squeeze the captive customer wallets for a secondary and pretty simple chemical compared to developers or bleaches/blixes. I have a box of six bottles of Fuji RA4 starter bought several years ago (two and a half bottles left) for what today is asked for a couple of bottles.

 

[Rudeofus]

Don't tell me I need to add 2mg of potassium iodide to my bootleg starter my heart can't take it

To give you an idea how meticulously and carefully I process my RA-4 stuff: I mix a bit more than half a liter of home brew RA-4 CD, and use it until carryover has reduced the amount of liquid to below 200ml, which is the amount I would need to process two larger sheets in a rotary processor. The CD turns from light golden to cherry red, and it works and works and works. Like with modern B&W printing paper I get the strong impression, that contrast and curves depend mostly on paper stock, and the CD has to provide just enough alkaline development agent to convert exposed silver halide to silver.

Oh, and I do like the results I get.

 

[MattKing]

The starter prices tend to be abussive nowadays for what they contain. Manufacturers squeeze the captive customer wallets for a secondary and pretty simple chemical compared to developers or bleaches/blixes. I have a box of six bottles of Fuji RA4 starter bought several years ago (two and a half bottles left) for what today is asked for a couple of bottles.

It is quite likely that the distributors don't want to deal with small volume users. A 6 bottle package of starter would be a useful quantity for a higher volume lab - perhaps a one year order - and that is the sort of market that the distribution people are most interested in.
They expect the low volume users will use the chemicals one shot, and won't care about extremely consistent and within close spec use at maximum economy, so will be happy using the chemicals one shot without starter.
Either that or accepting of the initial over-active response in a replenishment regime.
The manufacturers probably could care less - they just want to make the volumes and packaging that the distribution network thinks it can sell at a profit.
If you wish to replenish, and you can't reliably get starter at a reasonable price, just accept either a bit of waste or some initial non-optimum rsults and then go from there.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Here Freestyle offers Champion Ra/Rt kits under the Silver Pixel brand in convenient sizes, as well as an even smaller sized kit under their house Arista brand. It's identical in formulation to Kodak Ra/Rt, even interchangeable in my experience. I stuck with it even though Fuji/Hunt is significantly cheaper, because I didn't want to begin over factoring a mono rather than 3-part product. Even the Fuji distributor recommends 3-part Champion for small volume usage, but seldom have it in stock themselves.

The main problem with small vol purchases is that you get hit with a significant hazmat add-on shipping fee, regardless, each time. And the usual parcel carriers now mark up everything more due to increased fuel costs. It has to be shipped ground. But RA4 color printing is still relatively affordable, and hasn't gone ballistic in cost like B&W paper and mounting supplies.

 

[Blue Glass]

Thanks y'all for all of the replies, I would definitely do more research on all of those methods. Just getting started with darkroom printing for half a year. Logically speaking, I should use drum instead of open trey, but I just enjoy open trey more, and that's what keeps me going with the hobby. One more question though, if I can get myself the starter or mix my own starter, would the replenisher method work with Open trey? Since Open Trey does have a rapid oxidation on the developer, I do have a lid for all of my trey, and I do pour them back to a compressible bottle after each day's use. However, I notice the chemical looks much darker after 3 days.

 

[MattKing]

If you intend to replenish when using open tray, I'd suggest a moderately large bottle of working solution - perhaps three trays full at least.

 

[Blue Glass]

If you intend to replenish when using open tray, I'd suggest a moderately large bottle of working solution - perhaps three trays full at least.

Thanks! So around 3 liters in the big bottle, and I pour one liter every time I wanna print, then I throw and add the replenisher after each paper in the tray. at the end of day I would just pour them back to the 3 liter bottle. Does that sound like a solid plan?

 

[MattKing]

It would certainly be better than a smaller bottle.
Even so, you should monitor results carefully - as best as you are able.
I wouldn't bother adding replenisher each time I printed. I'd suggest keeping track of print numbers - e.g. X number of 8x10 or equivalent sheets - and replenish after every Y of them.
It may also be prudent to replenish and then empty/pour back the tray after Z number of 8x10 equivalent prints - you don't want the tay contents to become too exhausted.
I'll leave it to the regular users to suggest what numbers to use for X, Y and Z.

 

[Blue Glass]

It would certainly be better than a smaller bottle.
Even so, you should monitor results carefully - as best as you are able.
I wouldn't bother adding replenisher each time I printed. I'd suggest keeping track of print numbers - e.g. X number of 8x10 or equivalent sheets - and replenish after every Y of them.
It may also be prudent to replenish and then empty/pour back the tray after Z number of 8x10 equivalent prints - you don't want the tay contents to become too exhausted.
I'll leave it to the regular users to suggest what numbers to use for X, Y and Z.

Thanks! Will try that out, much appreciated!

 

[koraks]

would the replenisher method work with Open trey? Since Open Trey does have a rapid oxidation on the developer, I do have a lid for all of my trey, and I do pour them back to a compressible bottle after each day's use. However, I notice the chemical looks much darker after 3 days.

Yes, replenishment will work, but the question is what rate is appropriate. You may/will have to replenish a bit more than what the manufacturer recommends. By how much is impossible to tell. I generally round up my replenishment and that has always worked well for me. E.g. when my calculation comes out at w.g. 160ml I'd generally go for 200 instead. As @Rudeofus says, the developer van take a pretty decent beating before it goes belly up.

The developer naturally gets dark not just die to oxidation products, but also due to the cyan dye from the Fuji paper dissolving in the developer. Since the developer itself is straw-colored and oxidezes to magenta, the combination with the cyan dye creates a fairly strong brown color. My replenished developer generally looks like tea. It works great.

 

[Blue Glass]

Yes, replenishment will work, but the question is what rate is appropriate. You may/will have to replenish a bit more than what the manufacturer recommends. By how much is impossible to tell. I generally round up my replenishment and that has always worked well for me. E.g. when my calculation comes out at w.g. 160ml I'd generally go for 200 instead. As @Rudeofus says, the developer van take a pretty decent beating before it goes belly up.

The developer naturally gets dark not just die to oxidation products, but also due to the cyan dye from the Fuji paper dissolving in the developer. Since the developer itself is straw-colored and oxidezes to magenta, the combination with the cyan dye creates a fairly strong brown color. My replenished developer generally looks like tea. It works great.

Thanks! BTW, when do you know the developer is finally beaten up, and it is time to start a new batch with new starter and replenish? Is it the PH Level? And I heard the Bleach fix could almost last forever with proper replenish

 

[mshchem]

Yes, replenishment will work, but the question is what rate is appropriate. You may/will have to replenish a bit more than what the manufacturer recommends. By how much is impossible to tell. I generally round up my replenishment and that has always worked well for me. E.g. when my calculation comes out at w.g. 160ml I'd generally go for 200 instead. As @Rudeofus says, the developer van take a pretty decent beating before it goes belly up.

The developer naturally gets dark not just die to oxidation products, but also due to the cyan dye from the Fuji paper dissolving in the developer. Since the developer itself is straw-colored and oxidezes to magenta, the combination with the cyan dye creates a fairly strong brown color. My replenished developer generally looks like tea. It works great.

Very good point about the dye. It's very colorful.