Sinar Shutter lubricants

[fp3]

Hey folks! I have a Sinar/Copal shutter that hasn’t been service in a while, so I was thinking about doing the CLA myself. I got the Sinar maintenance manual that mention the lubricants to use, for the slow governor it should be the “Nyes Astro Batch 10939” or Mil-L-3918… I wasn’t able to find any meaningful link to a currently available product or a modern replacement to it.

I understand this should be a light oil for watch pinions or something similar, could it be an old name for Nyoil for shutter? I was thinking about replacing that with some modern synthetic watch oil like Moebius 9010/9020 but I’m wondering if the much different pinions size could completely mess up the balance in viscosity/surface tension.

Regarding the other grease to be used on the rest of the shutter pivots (outside the governor), the manual reference the “Special grease EB-5”… same thing, I wasn’t able to find any reference to this product other than in the Sinar manual. What I have already at home: Losoid 72515, 72510. Could this be something similar to one of the Losoids or Molykote G-N or DX?

Any help with that will be appreciated, thank you!

 

[OAPOli]

I'm not familiar with those lubricants. For spring loaded pivots and latches, you can use a Moly paste. Molykote sounds right. For the escapement mechanism, you can use watch oil on the wheel bearings but in my experience this is not strictly necessary; the escapement can run dry.

 

[PetrL]

You piqued my curiosity, so I did some research.
I found out that Nyes is an American lubricant manufacturer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Foster_Nye), unfortunately there is no mention of Astro Batch on their website.
MIL-L-3918 is a military standard, or specification for jewel bearings: https://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-L/MIL-L-3918A_12486/
From the above, I would conclude that this is most likely a watchmaker's oil, something like this: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Moebius+...sprefix=moebius+8000,aps,203&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

[BrianShaw]

Nye Astro was a 1980's-era lightweight synthetic oil, primarily used for low-temperature environments. Any good synthetic watch oil or lightweight clock oil would be a reasonable substitute.

 

[4season]

Because I lack specialized knowledge of lubricants, and I don't know the properties of the original lubricants (save for traces of the original, which have deteriorated) I mostly rely on experimentation and experience. And I will sometimes favor lubricants (especially graphite and molybdenum) which were not originally recommended by the manufacturer.

I have avoided wristwatch-specific lubricants because they seem to be application-specific, they can be costly, and they often have expiry dates.

Some of my go-to lubricants include:

Molykote G-N, especially for metal-on-metal contact areas which may see a good deal of shearing force, and don't need to move particularly fast. A small amount can also work wonders in lens helicoids and film door latches, though there is potential for staining clothing. Often, only a tiny amount is needed to make a big difference in friction-reduction, almost a thin dry film.

Where additional smoothness is desired, I may supplement this with a clear (polyethelene? Teflon?) grease.

Neoval Rubin G-8 is a good general-purpose oil. Often, I can apply directly to self-timer and shutter speed escapements.

But I have encountered shutters like Seiko SLV where the speed escapement is easily clogged. The solution was a solution: Of solvent (naptha in this case) + G-8, and on a hunch, a small amount of Molykote. I immersed the speed escapement into this cleaner/lubricant solution, let it soak awhile. Test any plastics beforehand to ensure they won't be damaged. My hope was that the addition of graphite, lithium and molybdenum from the Molykote G-N would continue to provide lubrication even if the oil evaporated over time, and so far, my concoction has worked brilliantly in this application. Visually, the assembly looks clean and dry.

 

[BrianShaw]

That's a very reasonable approach. @4season . Shutters and clocks and watches share one thing in common: all involve clockwork mechanisms. Shutters have more in common with clocks than watches, though.

Another affordable and available synthetic oil that works really good is Etsyntha 859.

Although... lately I've been also using some of the more modern dry lubes with PTFE and Moly. Flows on liquid and quickly evaporates leaving just the lubricant film.

 

[4season]

lately I've been also using some of the more modern dry lubes with PTFE and Moly. Flows on liquid and quickly evaporates leaving just the lubricant film.

Do you mean products like Tri-Flow? I haven't experimented with such, but sounds like it could be a real time-saver.

Whenever I've used needle point oilers, I've ended up squeezing out way too much, so I mostly use Begeon's 30102.04 extra-large with yellow handle.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yes, Tri Flow and the Finish Line products. Needle-point oilers almost always dispense too much. I don't undrestand why they are still made. Almost as bad as some spray products where the spray often is used in the wrong application.

 

[PetrL]

In the Rollei Werke service manuals there is a reference to Synthetic - Oil 9010, which refers to the synthetic watch oil Moebius 9010 https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

[fp3]

Thanks everyone for your inputs!
I wrote directly to Nye/Fuchs asking for a replacement oil and/or the technical spec of the old Nye Astro.

I was thinking about using a generic clock oil but I want to do this CLA properly… I have three Sinar shutters I think the effort in getting everything right could be worth it!

 

[fp3]

Nye/Fuchs has not yet replied but from my understanding the Moebius 9104 could be a great candidate to replace the Nye Astro, as it's made with the right viscosity for clock pinions (bigger/higher loads than watches). Does anybody have some tech information about the Nye Astro?

 

[BrianShaw]

I was thinking about using a generic clock oil...

That will actually work just fine, assuming that the oil is applied in the right locations and in the right manner. One thing to consider is that the power reserve of a shutter is considerably greater than that of a watch, plus the utilization of a shutter is much less frequent/continuous than either a watch or a clock. The Astro oil was probably overspec'd to avoid any issues with use of the shutter in Arctic conditions. For any "normal environments", there is a lot of latitude in lubricant that will provide proper effectivity and be considered a "proper overhaul". It's always tempting to use the vintage specifications but it's also good to remember that lubricant technology has moved on and some of the newer lubricants meet or exceed those vintage products.

If you really want to spend the money on oil, either 9010 or 9104 would work fine. Those are primarily for use with ruby bearings, though and D4/D5 might be a better option. Other brands like etsyntha 859 oil may be more affordable and also works fine in shutter applications. For a really budget yet effective option, Nye's Nyoil is frequently used and seems to fully meet expectations. Equally important is the grease you select for use on sliding surfaces...

 

[fp3]

That will actually work just fine, assuming that the oil is applied in the right locations and in the right manner. One thing to consider is that the power reserve of a shutter is considerably greater than that of a watch, plus the utilization of a shutter is much less frequent/continuous than either a watch or a clock. The Astro oil was probably overspec'd to avoid any issues with use of the shutter in Arctic conditions. For any "normal environments", there is a lot of latitude in lubricant that will provide proper effectivity and be considered a "proper overhaul". It's always tempting to use the vintage specifications but it's also good to remember that lubricant technology has moved on and some of the newer lubricants meet or exceed those vintage products.

If you really want to spend the money on oil, either 9010 or 9104 would work fine. Those are primarily for use with ruby bearings, though and D4/D5 might be a better option. Other brands like etsyntha 859 oil may be more affordable and also works fine in shutter applications. For a really budget yet effective option, Nye's Nyoil is frequently used and seems to fully meet expectations. Equally important is the grease you select for use on sliding surfaces...

Thanks for this information Brian! Why od you think the D4/D5 could be a better fit than the 9104? Do you have any information about the grease, also? As stated, I already have some of the specific Sinar greases - the aforementioned Losoid 72515 and 72510.

 

[BrianShaw]

Why od you think the D4/D5 could be a better fit than the 9104?

Because the D product line is specifically designed for non-jeweled bearings, like in shutters. For grease... Molykote is a good option. But the grease you currently have should be fine.

 

[fp3]

I got a reply from Nye and they told me the closest match will be Nye 227 that is a very light oil (comparable to the Moebius 9040 in viscosity at 20c). I started the endeavor of a full shutter CLA just to keep it running for another 30-40 years, if there is anybody interested I can post here my progress and the details of what I’m doing.

Next steps:

1. Deep cleaning of the escapement and the other parts with ultrasound cleaning machine - I still need to decide which cleaning fluid I’ll use
2. Same for the blades - my anxiety will skyrocket here. I was thinking of a final rinse in hexane as it should leave the parts completely dry
3. Re-lubing slow parts with Losoid 72515 or Molykote DX
4. Re-oiling drive train pinions with a minuscule quantity of Nye 227 or Moebius 9040
5. Shutter speed test

In the meantime, I’ll leave you with some pictures of the gorgeous big blades

 

[BrianShaw]

Please keep us informed!

 

[OAPOli]

My experience with oil on the escapement bearings is mixed. Either it doesn't accomplish anything (no effect on timings) or it migrates under the escapement, with the risk of spoiling the blades. Cleaning and correct positioning is much more important.

For the blades, I rinse them in Naphtha and rub them with a cotton bud. If the staining remains, a light polish with Brasso on a cotton bud works very well. You have to be gentle in the rubbing and only go towards the outside direction to avoid catching the edge and bending the blade.

What really helps is Moly paste on the latching surfaces and loaded pivots.