Need help identifying a camera and it's lens. Do I have a Unicorn?

[Waltherl]

Hi y'all... I need some help with identifying a camera. A friend of mine has bought a bunch of camera's, including an Ernemann and another similar type of 9x12 camera. That last one looks like a Pony Premo (but it is not). It has a C.P.O. Paris Anastigmat VIRLOR 1:6.8 F=150 lens. I cannot find any damn thing on that lens or that camera. I have searched everywhere on forums, wiki's, collectors pages, databases. Zilch, nothing.

I hope the collective hive mind of photographie which is Photrio can help me out here as I am stumped...

 

[MattKing]

Welcome to Photrio.

 

[JPD]

It might have been sold by a photographic store or mail order company under their own name. "PARIS" is a strong clue. The lens is French, and the shutter is most probably a French GITZO Type B (Pretty much a clone of the German Gauthier "Vario" shutter). Gitzo was founded in 1917, so the camera was made some time after that year.

The lens doesn't have a serial number so it's probably generic. The importer could have chosen the "VIRLOR" name. Could the 'C' in C.P.O stand for "Compagnie" and the 'O' for "Optique"? "Compagnie pour l'Optique Photographique" would have had the initials "C.O.P", though.

It could as likely stand for "Charles Pierre Opticien" (name made-up by me) or something for a wholesaler or the company selling the cameras instead of the manufacturer.

That the shutter is unbranded is another clue that they wanted the camera to seem more generic.

The camera is most likely French or by a company in the "Benelux" area who bought in French shuttered lenses.

 

[Ian Grant]

The front standard parts are German, Hüttig or Krügner, you find them on many pre-WW1 cameras, made by or for other companies, Eastman Kodak, Butcher, Houghton Thornton Pickard, etc.

As @JPD says it's most likely French, because of the lens, but another French quirk is the metal drawer type carrying handle.

The shutter is an early Alfred Gauthier Vario, so if original the camera was made around 1912, by then Hüttig and Krügner, had merged with Zeiss Palmos to form ICA. The little finder on the left on the base is in an ICA catalogue 1912-13, along with the shutters.

ICA was not just a manufacturer, their catalogue shows they were also importers and distributors, there are British field cameras, TP shutters, and other items. The catalogue also shows ICA cameras no longer using that style front standard.

Ian

 

[Chromium VI]

Could it be Centralle Parisienne d'Optique? https://www.societe.com/societe/centrale-parisienne-d-optique-391403201.html
Here it says that was created somwhere in the 90s, but that could be just the registration in some kind of informatic system...

 

[JoannaG]

Thanks so much for all the info! I'm Walthers friend and the actual owner of this camera.

The metal carrying handle intrigued me so it's nice to know that that's French too.

The funny thing is that the back is missing. I'd hoped to use one of my Ernemann plates, but the opening of the plate holder is 1mm smaller than my Ernemann Heag ii plates, though it looks like a 9x12 to me.
1 millimeter....

 

[Chromium VI]

I also own a camera from this era, also don't own the backs. I ended buying five plate holders for the Goerz Tenax, they don't fit by 1mm too... it's quite an agonizing sensation, so close

 

[JPD]

The shutter is an early Alfred Gauthier Vario, so if original the camera was made around 1912, by then Hüttig and Krügner, had merged with Zeiss Palmos to form ICA. The little finder on the left on the base is in an ICA catalogue 1912-13, along with the shutters.

The shape of the release lever looks more like the Gitzo:



The Gauthier Vario for comparison:

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The shape of the release lever looks more like the Gitzo:



The Gauthier Vario for comparison:

It's interesting to see the correct number '11.3' instead of the typically rounded '11' on the aperture plate.

 

[Ian Grant]

The shape of the release lever looks more like the Gitzo:



The Gauthier Vario for comparison:

The early Gitzo shutters are made by Alfred Gauthier, and rebadged. Gitzo only started making their own shutters in the 1939s.

These Vario shutters were sold marked with quite a few other names

Anyway the camera in question is pre-WW1, before Gitzo was founded.

Ian

 

[JPD]

The early Gitzo shutters are made by Alfred Gauthier, and rebadged. Gitzo only started making their own shutters in the 1939s.

View attachment 423951

These Vario shutters were sold marked with quite a few other names

Anyway the camera in question is pre-WW1, before Gitzo was founded.

Ian

That's not the Alfred Gauthier Calmbach AGC logo, but the Arsène Gitzhoven AG logo.

 

[Ian Grant]

That's not the Alfred Gauthier Calmbach AGC logo, but the Arsène Gitzhoven AG logo.

Correct, but these Gitzo shutters are not copies, they are Vario shutters. The Vario shutters was modified in 1929, as part of the Zeiss company's move to slim down the number of shutter variations made by Deckel & Gauthier, by then the Zeiss Foundation held the controlling interest in both companies. Some the Deckel & Gauthier of the shutters were redesigned the Compur went from Dial Set to Rim Set, and the tube and flange threads of all the shutters changed.

Apart from making shutters the two companies Deckel & Gauthier made the machine tooling etc for Carl Zeiss production lines. A Compound or Compur shutter made by Bausch & Lomb in the US is identical to one made in Germany, OK post WWII the US ones used a different flash connector.

If Gitzo did make Vario shutters it would have been with Gauthier machine tools and under license. Gitzo only started making their own shutters after Deckel and Gauthier changed to the modern thread sizes.

Ian

 

[JPD]

Correct, but these Gitzo shutters are not copies, they are Vario shutters. The Vario shutters was modified in 1929, as part of the Zeiss company's move to slim down the number of shutter variations made by Deckel & Gauthier, by then the Zeiss Foundation held the controlling interest in both companies. Some the Deckel & Gauthier of the shutters were redesigned the Compur went from Dial Set to Rim Set, and the tube and flange threads of all the shutters changed.

Apart from making shutters the two companies Deckel & Gauthier made the machine tooling etc for Carl Zeiss production lines. A Compound or Compur shutter made by Bausch & Lomb in the US is identical to one made in Germany, OK post WWII the US ones used a different flash connector.

If Gitzo did make Vario shutters it would have been with Gauthier machine tools and under license. Gitzo only started making their own shutters after Deckel and Gauthier changed to the modern thread sizes.

Ian

You are probably right and have better source materials than I do (speculations on Camera-Wiki like "It is quite possible that production (of the Gitzo Vario clone) started during the war when German patents were in abeyance. Certainly after Germany's unconditional surrender in 1918 French manufacturers could use German designs without fear of litigation.").

If the Vario shutter appeared in 1912, then this camera would have been made in 1912-1914 or a little later than that, because the French wouldn't have been able to import shutters from Germany during the war, right?

 

[Ian Grant]

If the Vario shutter appeared in 1912, then this camera would have been made in 1912-1914 or a little later than that, because the French wouldn't have been able to import shutters from Germany during the war, right?

I definitely think 1912-14, because by 1912 no ICA cameras used this style of front standard. So it would be old stock parts being sold off.

I would assume that France like Britain had a similar "Trading with the Enemy Act". I have the 1915 & 1917 BJP Almanacs (published November of the previous year) and there no new German products being sold at all, in 1915. A 1916 amendment to the Act allowed the sale of C.P. Goerz Optical Works Ltd, London, stock to be sold, they had been making cameras, lenses, and various other items in the UK since 1899.

Peeling & later joined by Van Neck took over the Goerz, London, works, Peeling had worked there since 1904, after the war they resumed making a "British Anschütz camera" same tooling as the German version, this later became the Van Neck Press Camera. Peeling & Van Neck were importers & distributors for Goerz, Berlin from 1923 until it merged into Zeiss Ikon in 1927.

Pre-WW1 companies often licensed production, or setup subsidiaries, in other countries. 5 companies were licensed to make Zeiss lenses, including Krauss in France. Alfred Gauthier was a shareholder in the 1911/12 new Deckel company, along with Bausch & Lomb, and of course Zeiss. and others, so it's possible he licensed Vario production before WW1.

Ian

 

[moggi1964]

I love this stuff. Truly fascinating.

 

[Waltherl]

It's really nice to read all of this. I got a bit out of the loop as my friend herself already joined in but lurking and reading all this stuff is indeed fascinating...

 

[Ian Grant]

Thanks so much for all the info! I'm Walthers friend and the actual owner of this camera.

The metal carrying handle intrigued me so it's nice to know that that's French too.

The funny thing is that the back is missing. I'd hoped to use one of my Ernemann plates, but the opening of the plate holder is 1mm smaller than my Ernemann Heag ii plates, though it looks like a 9x12 to me.
1 millimeter....

Here's a thread on 9x12 plate holders. There was no standard makes it harder finding the correct fit sometimes.

Ian