Differences Between Plate Photography Methods

[John Patrick Garriga]

Hey, gang. I'm thinking about getting into plate photography. I don't particularly care for a wet plate process, because I don't want to carry around a darkroom, pay for a portable, darkroom, or deal with cleaning the chemicals out of my camera. Should I look into tintype, dry plate, anything else? What exactly should I look for in a process to pursue?

 

[koraks]

Tintype is a variant of wet plate. If you don't want wet plate, you're left with dry plate.

More importantly - why? What is it in plate photography that appeals to you?

 

[jimjm]

Dry plate is a relatively easy first step if you want to try alternatives to regular film. If you're already shooting large-format you just need to buy a plate holder, or modify a standard film holder to fit the plates. No other modifications needed to the camera. Most commercially available dry plates, like those from Jason Lane are orthochromatic so the spectral response will be different to film. Similar to the look you get from wet plates.
Plate holders can be loaded / unloaded and the plates can be processed under a safelight in open trays. Use the same chemicals as for processing B/W film. The emulsion is generally much slower than film (I use ISO 2 and ISO 25 plates) and exposure calculations are more challenging since they are not sensitive to red light. Since the plates are hand-coated, you get some imperfections in the image but that's also part of the appeal.
Jason's plate production is currently paused due to relocation, but he'll hopefully be starting back up this year. Some retailers may still have them in stock.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Ever developed your own film?

 

[TheYoungPretender]

If you are looking for a positive process you can also use gelatin dry plates in the "faux tintype" manner described by Zebra dry plates, i.e. add some exposure, throw in a pinch of additional chemicals in your developer and back your glass plate/use the pre-made plates coated on aluminium

Zebra 4x5 Dry Plate Tintypes | Silver Gelatine Positives

Box of 10 High Quality Zebra 4x5 Dry Plate Tintypes also called Ferrotypes. Hand Coated with Fine Grain Silver Gelatine Emulsion just like in 1890s.

zebradryplates.com

 

[Donald Qualls]

Or you can (or could a couple years ago, still) buy liquid emulsion and coat your own dry plates on clear or black glass or black "lacquered" aluminum plates -- the latter two of which will give a "tintype" kind of direct-positive. This, once again, is orthochromatic (it's actually variable contrast print emulsion, originally intended for making prints on random objects), so you can handle it under an enlarging safelight. At least one of these products was specifically intended for Old West reenaction "tintype wagon" operators.

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

Ever developed your own film?

Working on it. I made some caffenol to test if my film was fogged after someone walked into the darkroom and turned on the lights. I was cutting film and unfortunately I wasn't able to close the dark bag completely before that happened and everything got fogged. Once I get some good film to handle under safelight I intend to start home developing seriously, or once I get some chemicals with better data sheets.

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

Tintype is a variant of wet plate. If you don't want wet plate, you're left with dry plate.

More importantly - why? What is it in plate photography that appeals to you?

It's mostly the cost of it all. Film gets expensive and I like the idea of being able to shoot for nickels and dimes, especially if I make my own emulsion from scratch.

 

[Alan9940]

It's mostly the cost of it all. Film gets expensive and I like the idea of being able to shoot for nickels and dimes, especially if I make my own emulsion from scratch.

If you think film is expensive...well, B&W film...wait until you price dry plates, especially 8x10 size. If you want to get into dry plate or faux tintype today, your only real option is Zebra Dry Plates. At this point, I'd be really surprised if you could find any of Jason Lane's plates in stock anywhere. Hopefully, Jason will be back in production sometime this year, but I've exchanged a couple of emails with him...let's just say, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[koraks]

It's mostly the cost of it all. Film gets expensive and I like the idea of being able to shoot for nickels and dimes, especially if I make my own emulsion from scratch.

Hm. I can see your point, but the argument is a bit like "I'd settle for a bicycle because a car is very expensive". The bike may get you to places, but it doesn't quite compare to a car. Different strengths & weaknesses. Plates are an alternative to film, but not a substitute.

 

[Don_ih]

Shooting film would be very very cheap if you shot as little and as slowly as you would with dry plates. A 36-exposure roll would last a year.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I shoot 4x5 for around a dollar a sheet (it's probably more now, I haven't bought any this year) on Fomapan/.EDU Ultra. You can shoot 8x10 for barely more than that if you use X-ray film.

From what I've seen, you can't even buy the glass to coat for less than that. Emulsion making, hand coating, glass plate, and especially wet plate is its own pursuit -- not an economy measure.

If you're after cost savings, get a 70 year old Graphic View, a couple film holders, and a box of .EDU Ultra 100 and shoot two to four frames on a trip out. You can still take half a day to do it with large format, and wind up with much more consistent and successful results than with anything homemade.

I don't know if Ilford cuts their Ortho 80 in 4x5, but you can get X-ray recut to that size for about the same price as .EDU Ultra (or cut it from 8x10 yourself under red safelight so as not to pay someone else to do it).

 

[Alan9940]

I shoot 4x5 for around a dollar a sheet (it's probably more now, I haven't bought any this year) on Fomapan/.EDU Ultra. You can shoot 8x10 for barely more than that if you use X-ray film.

From what I've seen, you can't even buy the glass to coat for less than that. Emulsion making, hand coating, glass plate, and especially wet plate is its own pursuit -- not an economy measure.

I haven't checked prices recently, but back when I bought my stock of 8x10 Foma 100 from fotoimpex it was around $2 per sheet, even with shipping to the states. Pretty reasonable for 8x10 film, IMO.

Coating your own glass for dry plate or coating tin for wet plate is definitely not cheap and, more importantly, can be difficult to master for best results. If I was so inclined to coat my own glass for dry plate, I'd start by studying all the info available at The Light Farm and use their recipe to start. If I was going down the wet plate rabbit hole, I'd probably buy the emulsion, etc from Bostick & Sullivan. But, hey, that's just me...

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

If you think film is expensive...well, B&W film...wait until you price dry plates, especially 8x10 size. If you want to get into dry plate or faux tintype today, your only real option is Zebra Dry Plates. At this point, I'd be really surprised if you could find any of Jason Lane's plates in stock anywhere. Hopefully, Jason will be back in production sometime this year, but I've exchanged a couple of emails with him...let's just say, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Shouldn't it be cheaper over time? I wouldn't think it's more expensive to make your own emulsion, and I could re-use the plates. Granted I guess I could buy clear acetate sheets and make film to forego the cost of glass.

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

I haven't checked prices recently, but back when I bought my stock of 8x10 Foma 100 from fotoimpex it was around $2 per sheet, even with shipping to the states. Pretty reasonable for 8x10 film, IMO.

I may just see about buying a 50 pack of Foma 100 and EDU Ultra 100 and see which ones I like best from there. Accepting that 4x5 is just plain expensive may just be the hard, right choice.

 

[koraks]

Granted I guess I could buy clear acetate sheets and make film to forego the cost of glass.

Coating acetate or other plastics is a whole different ballgame than glass. It's far more complex.
Also, glass is pretty cheap. I always used plain float glass for photo purposes. Cut to size at home, burr edges and enjoy.

I may just see about buying a 50 pack of Foma 100 and EDU Ultra 100 and see which ones I like best from there. Accepting that 4x5 is just plain expensive may just be the hard, right choice.

They're the same film. Get whichever one is cheaper.
Also, I don't think 4x5 is particularly expensive if you shoot Fomapan. You generally don't go out and shoot 36 frames of 4x5 on an afternoon. Since you generally shoot less in the same timeframe, the costs don't add up too much.

Also, I still think you're massively underestimating the complexity of manufacturing your own plates. Sure, it's possible, but it's a long and steep learning curve, and even if/when you've got it under your belt, you'll be spending a lot of time making materials that you could otherwise spend making images. It might be a good idea to reflect a bit where your heart lies - in making images, or spending time in the darkroom playing around with materials.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I don't think 4x5 is particularly expensive if you shoot Fomapan.

Last time I bought .EDU Ultra 100, (a year or so ago) it was still around $1/frame, a little more in 25 sheet, a little less in 50. The only films I've seen cheaper in 4x5 are litho films (intended for making printing plates with half-tone screens, super high contrast) or cut-your-own from 8x10 X-ray (which itself was about a dollar a sheet). That's comparable to Kodak or Ilford 120 (8 6x9 frames for about $11), but with more than twice the image area of 6x9.

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

Coating acetate or other plastics is a whole different ballgame than glass. It's far more complex.
Also, glass is pretty cheap. I always used plain float glass for photo purposes. Cut to size at home, burr edges and enjoy.


They're the same film. Get whichever one is cheaper.
Also, I don't think 4x5 is particularly expensive if you shoot Fomapan. You generally don't go out and shoot 36 frames of 4x5 on an afternoon. Since you generally shoot less in the same timeframe, the costs don't add up too much.

Also, I still think you're massively underestimating the complexity of manufacturing your own plates. Sure, it's possible, but it's a long and steep learning curve, and even if/when you've got it under your belt, you'll be spending a lot of time making materials that you could otherwise spend making images. It might be a good idea to reflect a bit where your heart lies - in making images, or spending time in the darkroom playing around with materials.

If they're the same, that's good news. I guess I'll pick up a hundred sheets or so of either one.
I will say that I do love the chemistry aspect of old time photography. If I can save a dime with it, I'd definitely be willing to go through everything in the darkroom. Plus, even though someone opened up the darkroom and fogged all of my x-ray film, I enjoyed cutting it. It's something deliberate. I'd love being able to do photography even when I'm not making images. I figure, I probably won't be shooting ONLY plates, so I can save production of them for a rainy day or dark hours.

 

[John Patrick Garriga]

Last time I bought .EDU Ultra 100, (a year or so ago) it was still around $1/frame, a little more in 25 sheet, a little less in 50. The only films I've seen cheaper in 4x5 are litho films (intended for making printing plates with half-tone screens, super high contrast) or cut-your-own from 8x10 X-ray (which itself was about a dollar a sheet). That's comparable to Kodak or Ilford 120 (8 6x9 frames for about $11), but with more than twice the image area of 6x9.

I noticed the litho film, and I may buy a pack of that for experimenting. I definitely will try x-ray film again. Maybe with some latex gloves this time, though.

 

[Alan9940]

Shouldn't it be cheaper over time? I wouldn't think it's more expensive to make your own emulsion, and I could re-use the plates. Granted I guess I could buy clear acetate sheets and make film to forego the cost of glass.

I was talking pre-made plates from the likes of Zebra Dry Plates or Jason Lane. Sure, you could coat your own glass and the cost is probably quite a bit less than the same size film, but coating plates is not simple when trying to have top quality results, IMO, anyway. Surf on over to The Light Farm and see what's involved. If it's a rabbit hole you wnat to go down, have fun...I'm sure you'll learn a lot.

 

[Alan9940]

I may just see about buying a 50 pack of Foma 100 and EDU Ultra 100 and see which ones I like best from there. Accepting that 4x5 is just plain expensive may just be the hard, right choice.

Arista EDU.Ultra 100 is Foma 100. No need to buy both.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I noticed the litho film, and I may buy a pack of that for experimenting.

I got a box of one of those half-tone films (not quite the same as ortho litho, but similarly high resolution and extremely high contrast in its normal development). Haven't had a chance to test it yet, but I plan to develop it as I would microfilm stock like Imagelink. If I can make it work (even at very low EI) it's really inexpensive...