Speaking of stop and fix....

[pbromaghin]

Does it matter if the same stop or fixer batches are used in B&W, C-41 and/or ECN-2? I've read that fixer shouldn't be used for both film and paper, but an old-timer retired pro told me it's a load of crap, that he did it all the time.

 

[MattKing]

Are you talking about re-using the contents of a working solution bottle in each of three different film development processes?
If so, think of all the intermixing of byproducts and chemical residues you will be adding to the final film.
Was the old-time pro also the type who liked to smoke cigars while working in the darkroom ?

 

[pbromaghin]

Yup, re-using. I am thinking of all the intermixing - that's why I'm asking before I do it.

Rethinking it, he isn't that old, younger than me in fact. Not really retired either, but selling non-chemical light-gathering devices at a camera store. He made a decent living doing custom darkroom work for several pro photographers back in the day.

edit to add: The reason this comes up is because I see a bring-your-own-stop-and-fixer ECN-2 kit at Ultrafine.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yup, re-using. I am thinking of all the intermixing - that's why I'm asking before I do it.

Rethinking it, he isn't that old, younger than me in fact. Not really retired either, but selling non-chemical light-gathering devices at a camera store. He made a decent living doing custom darkroom work for several pro photographers back in the day.

edit to add: The reason this comes up is because I see a bring-your-own-stop-and-fixer ECN-2 kit at Ultrafine.

Do whatever you want, man.
What losses will you incur if that idea is wrong?
I think that even if it was a bad idea, there would be no painful losses.
- I always think of this logic,,,,,,, What is the size of the expected losses (if they really exist)?
And based on the size of the expected losses, I made my decision.

 

[Truzi]

I think the issue of mixing is you may get debris from the paper in the chemicals, which could harm the film.

 

[koraks]

Does it matter if the same stop or fixer batches are used in B&W, C-41 and/or ECN-2?

Both stop and fix are cheap enough to use one shot at least for film. I generally use C41 fixer diluted something like 1+10 or 1+12, one shot. In a Jobo system, a single 135 roll thus only requires something like 15ml of fixer concentrate.

 

[koraks]

PE warned against acetic acid based stop baths for C41 several times.

No, he didn't. He warned against citric acid stop baths. Acetic acid is perfectly fine, and PE explicitly recommended it. As I recall PE never managed to recall exactly why citric acid would have been problematic. I have used citric acid often for RA4 prints with no detrimental effects, but never on C41 film.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Does it matter if the same stop or fixer batches are used in B&W, C-41 and/or ECN-2? I've read that fixer shouldn't be used for both film and paper, but an old-timer retired pro told me it's a load of crap, that he did it all the time.

In B&W, I use fresh fixer for film but use the same fixer for paper later without any ill effects. I I wouldn't use the same processing bath for different processes though.

 

[bernard_L]

Do whatever you want, man.
What losses will you incur if that idea is wrong?

I think the issue of mixing is you may get debris from the paper in the chemicals, which could harm the film.

+1
Any damage to the negative is irrecoverable.

 

[removed account4]

when I suggested to PE that I was doing that he exclaimed "that is bad for your film!"
I continued to cross process my film all in the same developer over and over again. I figure I don't really need to save anything for eternity.*
*if it is for a job I use fresh chemistry!

 

[pbromaghin]

when I suggested to PE that I was doing that he exclaimed "that is bad for your film!"
I continued to cross process my film all in the same developer over and over again. I figure I don't really need to save anything for eternity.*
*if it is for a job I use fresh chemistry!

But John, You never know what it's going to come out like anyway, so how would you even know if it worked?*
*Except for a job...

 

[pbromaghin]

No, he didn't. He warned against citric acid stop baths. Acetic acid is perfectly fine, and PE explicitly recommended it. As I recall PE never managed to recall exactly why citric acid would have been problematic. I have used citric acid often for RA4 prints with no detrimental effects, but never on C41 film.

I remember this, and he said somebody from Kodak who had an even bigger brain than his convinced him so. But I'm using Kodak Indicator Stop so it isn't a consideration.

 

[pbromaghin]

A plain-water rinse before using each should be sufficient to deal with any excessive chemical carry over, shouldn't it?

 

[Auer]

Does it matter if the same stop or fixer batches are used in B&W, C-41 and/or ECN-2? I've read that fixer shouldn't be used for both film and paper, but an old-timer retired pro told me it's a load of crap, that he did it all the time.

I use no stop with Cinestill C41 and ECN-2.
I use Cinestills fixer, F96 and it holds up to about 30 rolls (thats when I stop using a batch) and still fixes in less than 3 minutes per a film leader test.

I have used the same batch for all my processing, C-41, ECN-2 and B&W and noticed no side effects.
That said, Fixer is so cheap that I will mix a separate batch for color processes next time, just in case.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Are you looking for "best practice," or trying to squeak by with the sloppiest processing you can manage that will still deliver an acceptable-to-you result?

If the former, then it is pretty clear that reusing fixer that has fixed film in it already is bad for fiber-base prints. As I understand it, there are by-products in film fixer that are difficult to remove from the paper, even with thorough washing. Plus, film fixer will tolerate a much higher level of dissolved silver and still fix film well than fixer for fiber-base paper. It is really a good idea to use a separate fix for fiber-base paper and to watch throughput capacity carefully. Careful control of your processing and capacities is pretty important if you are processing for optimal permanence. If you don't care how long your prints last, then, whatever...

I imagine that you might be able to fix film adequately in used paper fixer after it has reached it's capacity, but, personally, I'd never bother.

RC paper is a different story and I'm not familiar enough with the recommendations for it to comment on whether a single batch of fix would work for both it and film. Still, you'd be throwing off any kind of capacity control based on throughput, since who knows what the effects would be on the fixer capacity. I guess one could do extensive tests and come up with a factor, e.g., a "sheets of 8x10 paper" equivalent for X amount of film, but that kind of defeats the purpose of being lazy and using one fix for everything, doesn't it.

C-41 is also a different story; I'll leave that to the color printers to discuss.

Best,

Doremus

 

[faberryman]

I am all for being thrifty, but after you have gone to all the time and expense of shooting a roll of film, is this really the best way to save a few cents?

 

[MattKing]

Which order were you planning to use it?
B&W, C-41, then ECN2?
ECN2, B&W, then C-41?
Or something else?
Or were you planning just random re-use, until you encounter exhaustion?
I'm pretty confident no one has actually done objective and reproducible tests.

 

[removed account4]

But John, You never know what it's going to come out like anyway, so how would you even know if it worked?*
*Except for a job...

hi pbromaghin: believe it or not I know exactly how it will come out. unless it is something like royale pan 1350 I have exposed and processed for the first time. pretty much ever roll or sheet I develop comes out the same, and has for IDK 12 years ... I have a "system" ...
I only process things in sprint for a job because part of the mandate for HABS submissions is it can't be a staining developer and sprint is sort of like d76..

 

[removed account4]

I am all for being thrifty, but after you have gone to all the time and expense of shooting a roll of film, is this really the best way to save a few cents?

not to mention the river of time doesn't back flush ...

 

[pbromaghin]

I am all for being thrifty, but after you have gone to all the time and expense of shooting a roll of film, is this really the best way to save a few cents?

I'm not trying to save money. I'm trying to save the bother of mixing and keeping track of so many bottles containing the same thing. My poor middle aged brain is easily confused.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm not trying to save money. I'm trying to save the bother of mixing and keeping track of so many bottles containing the same thing. My poor middle aged brain is easily confused.

If your photographs are worth something to you, then bother yourself to keep your chemistry separate.

 

[MattKing]

@koraks you're right, I always confuse the two

Remind me not to visit your fish and chips restaurant.

 

[grat]

I'm not trying to save money. I'm trying to save the bother of mixing and keeping track of so many bottles containing the same thing. My poor middle aged brain is easily confused.

Two boxes, one labeled C41, one labeled B&W, three working bottles for B&W, three for Color, each set has a red label for developer, a blue label for stop, and a green label for fixer. Which happens to match Ilford's coding, but that was by accident.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

A plain-water rinse before using each should be sufficient to deal with any excessive chemical carry over, shouldn't it?

that has been debated for years. The definite answer is probably!

 

[pbromaghin]

Do whatever you want, man.
What losses will you incur if that idea is wrong?
I think that even if it was a bad idea, there would be no painful losses.
- I always think of this logic,,,,,,, What is the size of the expected losses (if they really exist)?
And based on the size of the expected losses, I made my decision.

Well, yes. Just some film. And a lot of it I bulk load so it's really not much.
And sometimes several hours of driving. Maybe a plane ticket. Hmmm. A hotel room. Oh, and a rental car.
A visit with my only grandchild who lives far away and won't be a child much longer.
That last visit with my dying sister.
Not much at all.
Easy decision.