Zorki 4 - what sort of shutter issue is this?

mediaseth · Jun 24, 2016

I shouldn't complain. I got a Zorki 4 for what it would have cost me to buy the Jupiter 8 lens it came with by itself. The lens is in good condition. (I also did the same with a Fed 3 and Industar 61 and found the shutter to have light leaks. At least with that one, I can easily diagnose the problem.)

I put a roll of Kodak Portra 400 through the Zorki. Best I can do to explain is show you the results. Shutter speeds ranged from 1/60 to 1/225. I already knew about not changing shutter speeds until the shutter is cocked, but perhaps a previous owner did not? Is this the effect of doing that wrong? What's weird is that it's not consistent. On some, half the frame came out. On others, the photo came out completely! If only I had exif data haha.

R.Gould · Jun 24, 2016

Could be that you have a lazy shutter where the second curtain does not completely shut, common I believe on Zorkies. I have had a couple with that problem, does not effect all shutter speeds, and sometimes firing the shutter repeatlly fixes it, fire it with the back off on all speeds and see what the shutter does,

cuthbert · Jun 24, 2016

First and third look like a lazy curtain, the second one a light leak.

mediaseth · Jun 24, 2016

Thank you. That light leak only showed up in a couple of shots. Now, I have a completely NEW problem!

I tried opening the back to watch the shutter curtain at different speeds to see where I can spot the lazy curtain. I could not advance/cock the shutter. See in the photo, those two small metal pins, bottom of the metal sprocket. Those are longer on my FED 3, but just barely scrape each other on the Zorki 4. That's weird because it was not a problem before. I tried setting it to rewind and then photo-taking mode again. I can't get those two pins to contact each other. Seems the more I use it, the worse it gets.

darkosaric · Jun 24, 2016

You should get rid of this camera. The cost of films + developing, and then on the end you get problems - the only way is to get rid of it. Get some Canonet, or some Olympus rangefinder - they are super cheap and good. Or if you have money - get M6.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 24, 2016

Regarding geting of M6 instead of Z4, Bessa R will do it most effectively. Also, OP posted it in 35mm forum, not in RF forum. So, any Nikon SLR will do or Olympus.
And +1 for letting Z4 go. I was in the same situation, it came as the rear cap for J-3. I sold Z4 quickly before it broke on me. It is too complicated camera for what KMZ was capable of.
Or spend +100USD for Z4 CLA, somewhere... I asked our local ex-Leica technician about FSU RFs CLA, he told me it is not something he is into, just because how those cameras were build.
If RF, FSU and J-8 are important, I recommend FED-2. It is camera which allows the owner to perform self CLA and repairs without huge knowledge and without specialty tools.

mediaseth · Jun 24, 2016

Thank you. Yes, I posted in this forum because originally I thought my issue was more cloth-shutter related, and those aren't limited to rangefinders.

I'm into just about every kind of camera, which is a problem. I am one of the few who has had good luck with a Kiev 6c medium format SLR, so I was willing to give other Soviet cameras a try - and I adapt those lenses to my mirrorless digital, anyway. So, I bought two more lenses and the Fed 3 and Zorki 4's can either be decor or someone's else's project.

I've been looking into Japanese rangefinders, as well. I like my YashicaMat TLR but I was afraid to pull the trigger on a Yashica Electro because of the batteries. I'd really like a purely mechanical camera and if it must have a light meter, an un-coupled one so I can ignore it if it doesn't work or takes obsolete batteries.

As for SLR's, I have a Canon AE-1 P. Bits of foam are floating around in it, now and it has that nasty shutter noise. I also have a primitive Agfa Optima 500 from the 1960's with a still working light meter that's maybe 95% reliable.

I have a soft spot for heavy, mechanical and quirky things. Just not the budget for an M6.

Thanks, all.

Ko.Fe. said:
Regarding geting of M6 instead of Z4, Bessa R will do it most effectively. Also, OP posted it in 35mm forum, not in RF forum. So, any Nikon SLR will do or Olympus.
And +1 for letting Z4 go. I was in the same situation, it came as the rear cap for J-3. I sold Z4 quickly before it broke on me. It is too complicated camera for what KMZ was capable of.
Or spend +100USD for Z4 CLA, somewhere... I asked our local ex-Leica technician about FSU RFs CLA, he told me it is not something he is into, just because how those cameras were build.
If RF, FSU and J-8 are important, I recommend FED-2. It is camera which allows the owner to perform self CLA and repairs without huge knowledge and without specialty tools.

gone · Jun 24, 2016

"Seems the more I use it, the worse it gets".

This is pretty much how it works. The camera is working normally, as many do. Like crap! Save yourself a ton of grief and buy a Bessa R (but keep the Zorki lens, that's a great lens from those shots you posted). Great meter on the Bessa R, very reliable, lots of fun. My last Fed 2 had to be sent back to Fedka three times, and it still had shutter capping exactly like yours. Cost me over $300 w/ all the shipping and repair costs, and I got $15 for it on eBay in it's non working condition. Anyone comes in my house w/ a FSU camera, I'm gonna snatch it from them and use it to brain them.

"I have a soft spot for heavy, mechanical and quirky things".

Then you want a Nikkormat! Those things are just wonderful. Heavy, well made, all manual cameras w/ good meters, and the non AI Nikon lenses are pure gold, especially the 50 2 Nikkor.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 24, 2016

mediaseth said:
....
As for SLR's, I have a Canon AE-1 P. Bits of foam are floating around in it, now and it has that nasty shutter noise. I also have a primitive Agfa Optima 500 from the 1960's with a still working light meter that's maybe 95% reliable.

I have a soft spot for heavy, mechanical and quirky things. Just not the budget for an M6.

Thanks, all.

This is why I recommended Nikon and Olympus
If you want fully mechanical camera for J-8, get LTM (Barnack) Leica. They are cheap now, but true Leicas. Also Canon made some all metal LTM Leica clone RFs.
This one is something you might like for J-8.
https://www.cameraquest.com/canonp.htm

shutterfinger · Jun 24, 2016

Picture 1- second curtain caught up to the first curtain at 2/3 point of the frame and they stayed together the rest of the frame.
Picture 2- the second curtain hung at the 2/3 frame point causing over exposure.
Picture 3- same as picture 1 except that the second curtain caught up at mid frame.
Picture 4- shutter worked correctly.

Now back to the camera bashers.

cuthbert · Jun 24, 2016

Before throwing it away check this out:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33914

The problem of the curtain is simple, it needs relubing the pivots, my tech is able to do that without disassembling completely the camera.

I disassembled a Z4 to fix the rangefinder following the pictures of that thread and I fixed the problem, I don't see so much much people despise the Z4, it's a good camera, very reliable but like every 50+ camera it needs CLA.

mediaseth · Jun 24, 2016

Ah okay, but even if I fix the shutter, there's the pin on the bottom not working anymore to advance the film and cock the shutter. (See post with photo above)

cuthbert said:
Before throwing it away check this out:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33914

The problem of the curtain is simple, it needs relubing the pivots, my tech is able to do that without disassembling completely the camera.

I disassembled a Z4 to fix the rangefinder following the pictures of that thread and I fixed the problem, I don't see so much much people despise the Z4, it's a good camera, very reliable but like every 50+ camera it needs CLA.

cuthbert · Jun 24, 2016

mediaseth said:
Ah okay, but even if I fix the shutter, there's the pin on the bottom not working anymore to advance the film and cock the shutter. (See post with photo above)

Have you checked out the instructions to disassemble the pin? It appears it remained in the "up" position used for rewinding.

shutterfinger · Jun 25, 2016

My description in post #10 is based on the shutter traveling Left to Right.
Description based on Right to Left travel of the curtains:
Picture 1- curtain 2 sticks to curtain 1 or both are released at the same moment and about 1/3 of the frame they separate and produce a correct exposure.
Picture 2- curtain 2 fails to release on time and causes over exposure for the first 1/3 of the frame then snaps into position and produces a correct exposure.
Picture 3- second curtain sticks to curtain 1 or is released at the same moment as curtain 1 and half way across the frame it separates and produces a correct exposure.
Picture 4- shutter worked correctly.

The Horizontal travel focal plane shutter consists of two curtains spring tensioned to travel at the same rate. Curtain 1 has a solid section that covers the image gate and an open section that is larger than the image gate. Curtain 2 is a solid section that covers the image gate. In the released state curtain 2 blocks light at the image gate. In a cocked state curtain 1 solid section blocks light at the image gate. Upon releasing the shutter curtain 1 moves and its open area starts allowing light to pass through the image gate to the film. The second curtain is released and starts blocking light at the film gate. This forms a slit that is swept across the width of the film gate. The width of the slit is determined by the shutter speed selected, narrow slit for fast speeds, wider slits for slower speeds.

The shutter in this camera needs servicing.

mediaseth · Jun 25, 2016

Thanks again, everyone. For something to temporarily meet my 35mm needs, I picked up a Konica A3 SLR in excellent shape. It sure isn't a Nikon F2, but it's something to hold me over until I get my rangefinder issues sorted out. I also looked at a really nice Contax, but it was more than I was willing to pay for just the body.

I started a new thread to see what experience folks have had with the Konica. Of course, I'm asking post-purchase rather than pre-purchase

AgX · Jun 25, 2016

mediaseth said:
I also have a primitive Agfa Optima 500 from the 1960's with a still working light meter that's maybe 95% reliablel.

I would not call it a primitive camera.
Agfa with their Optima were the first to introduce a 35mm camera with program autoexposure! In 1959.

Your Optima 500 is the 4th model of that series from about 10 years later.

mediaseth · Jun 25, 2016

That's interesting. I did not know that! I have gotten some good shots from it, but as it is a viewfinder and not a rangefinder I'm not used to the fact that I have to guestimate/trust the focus.

AgX said:
I would not call it a primitive camera.
Agfa with their Optima were the first to introduce a 35mm camera with program autoexposure! In 1959.

Your Optima 500 is the 4th model of that series from about 10 years later.

darkosaric · Jun 27, 2016

AgX said:
Agfa with their Optima were the first to introduce a 35mm camera with program autoexposure! In 1959.

My uncle (who is now 85) told me that he was very happy when he got his first Optima. He told me: "finally for those slides I did not needed to think which exposure and f stop and those things...just aim and shoot - perfect vacation" .
Last year I looked those slides from 1960-1970 on slide projector - colors are alive and great as new!

mediaseth · Jun 27, 2016

Here's a flickr gallery of some of my Agfa Optima shots (the light leak one was my own fault). https://www.flickr.com/gp/134931907@N04/G5pcnS

Here's the camera, itself -

darkosaric said:
My uncle (who is now 85) told me that he was very happy when he got his first Optima. He told me: "finally for those slides I did not needed to think which exposure and f stop and those things...just aim and shoot - perfect vacation" .
Last year I looked those slides from 1960-1970 on slide projector - colors are alive and great as new!

noyart · Jun 27, 2016

I remember that I had the same problem with a lot of shots, often on the lower shutter speeds. In the end my Zorki4K died on me, the winder broke down.
I got myself a Bessa R2A the same day, and now that's almost the only camera I take with me. I would totally check out the Voigtländer Bessa series. The R2A is from 2014.

cuthbert · Jun 29, 2016

Doctor Wolves pronounced the diagnosis:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156520

The camera is stuck in self winding mode, needs a good cleaning and relubing.

Zorki 4 - what sort of shutter issue is this?

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