Zone System Sequence?

jamusu · Dec 28, 2007

Is this the proper sequence to use the Zone System with f-stops? To close down rotate to the left. To open up rotate to the right. The Roman Numerals represent the Zones with corresponding f/stops. Four Scenarios will follow assuming that each time Zone V is f/5.6.

II-(f/16) III-(F/11) IV-(f/8)) V-(f/5.6) VI-(f/4) VII-(f/2.8) VIII-(f.2)

1.) To meter for snow open up two stops and go from f/5.6 to f/2.8.
2.) To meter for black hair close down two stops from f/5.6 to f/11.
3.) To meter for Caucasian skin open up one stop and go from f/5.6 to f/4.
4.) To meter for dark brown hair close down one stop from f/5.6 to f/8.

Is this the basic gyst of the zone system the way that I have it written it for f-stops? I know that shutter speed can factor in as well depending on how much or little depth of field that I want. I am still attempting to figure the zone system out. Any help will be thoroughly appreciated.

Jamusu.

jamusu · Dec 28, 2007

Sorry about the closeness of the Zones and f/stops. The system will not allow me to space them any further apart.

Jamusu.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 28, 2007

The Zone System has nothing to do with your lens. It enables you to use your lens to better interpret your subject, but it has nothing to do woth your lens. There are many sources for Zone System education, but I would like to suggest that you pick up a copy of Ansel Adams' book 'The Negative and start reading. Chapter four is on the Zone System, but the other chapters lead into it as a cohesive work and are chock full of information.

smieglitz · Dec 28, 2007

You are comparing brightness values expressed as metered f/stop settings.

In the Zone System you base the exposure on the shadow areas (assuming you are shooting negative film) and then develop to bring the highlights into the proper envisioned zone. Metering snow and opening up two stops to expose may work to hold detail in the snow, but that isn't Zone System practice. Nailing the highlight exposure only ensures the highlight will be correctly placed. It does nothing to ensure correct shadow areas. (You are really doing a method similar to that recommended by Fred Picker and not purely ZS practice.)

I'd recommend John Schaeffer's book The Ansel Adams Guide to Photography because he has excerpted material from Adams' The Negative and The Print and compiled the information in a much more readable form. Adams is a much more difficult read.

jamusu · Dec 28, 2007

I am sorry, this is for 35mm cameras. Written by Carson Graves. It is not purely Zone System I think. Guess I shoulda mentioned that huh.

Jamusu.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 29, 2007

That's OK, Jamusu. The Zone System can, at least in part, be applied to the use of any camera, even d*g*t*l. The Zone System is intended to assist the photographer in placing purposefully the light values in the subject within a specific luminance/brightness range on the negative/slide. It is somewhat limited with cameras that use negative roll films (135, 120, etc.) in that you cannot develop individual negatives as with large format cameras that employ sheet film. Even more so with reversal/slide films as to the limited exposure latitude. But the Zone principles can be used for adjusting exposure to create the vision that you want the negative to show. So, don't be discouraged if it can take some study and practice to get the Zone System down right. In regards to the end results, it is well worth the effort.

JBrunner · Dec 29, 2007

To really Zone out, you gotta stop thinking of stops (until it is time to apply them) and situations as rules. I would recommend getting an analog spot meter with a calculator and making or putting a zone system sticker on the calculator part. That way you can see how the zones slide around at different exposures. The Zone System doesn't have hard and fast rules concerning "snow" for instance. It is about tones, and where you want them to fall, and manipulating the response of the negative through development. That's what is going on when people say stuff like "N+1" The Zone system is an inclusive method of sensitometry, and well worth understanding. There are other methods these days, but the Zone system makes a good foundation. Study through AA's system, and you will be more prepared to understand the others, including the "guidelines" you are currently reading. Without testing for a baseline film response, using your stock and developer, you are just flopping around with different exposures, and saying "put snow in zone six" is pretty useless, if you aren't shooting the right film speed for you.

Chuck_P · Dec 29, 2007

jamusu said:
1.) To meter for snow open up two stops and go from f/5.6 to f/2.8.
2.) To meter for black hair close down two stops from f/5.6 to f/11.
3.) To meter for Caucasian skin open up one stop and go from f/5.6 to f/4.
4.) To meter for dark brown hair close down one stop from f/5.6 to f/8.

Is this the basic gyst of the zone system the way that I have it written it for f-stops? I know that shutter speed can factor in as well depending on how much or little depth of field that I want. I am still attempting to figure the zone system out. Any help will be thoroughly appreciated.

Jamusu.

Those are tyical generic corrections to average reflective meter readings when the meter could be getting fooled IMO. The ZS can be applied in 35mm photography with the main limitation being that development control of individual frames is not practical. Adams suggested with 35mm to provide adequate exposure for the shadow areas and then to give N-1 development to the roll to try and control highlight densities. Use printing cotrols to adjust contrast. It's not near as flexible as being able to develop individual sheets but it provides a measue of control.

Have you gotten any teaching resource to aid you in learning the zone system? I would do so if you have not. AA's "The Negative" is entirely readable but you will only get from it what you put into it regardless of the book you use (sounds like preachy parent talk, sorry, but it's the cold hard truth). Fred Picker and John Schaefer are good supporting sources as well.

The gist of the ZS relates exposure and development of the film with negative densities and print tones. It's the old "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlight" saying. That's what it is all about and the Zone System method of exposure and development is "one" way to do it.

Chuck

jamusu · Dec 29, 2007

Yes I do have a teaching aid.

It is named, "The Zone System for 35MM Photographers", written by Carson Graves. It in my opinion is a great book. The only thing that I am confused on is opening up or closing down f/stops to the appropriate zone. This is why I posted the zones and their corresponding f/stops.

Do I have it written correctly? Based on my four scenarios, am I opening up and closing down in the right directions to get to the appropriate zones?

Jamusu.

JBrunner · Dec 29, 2007

jamusu said:
Yes I do have a teaching aid.

It is named, "The Zone System for 35MM Photographers", written by Carson Graves. It in my opinion is a great book. The only thing that I am confused on is opening up or closing down f/stops to the appropriate zone. This is why I posted the zones and their corresponding f/stops.

Do I have it written correctly? Based on my four scenarios, am I opening up and closing down in the right directions to get to the appropriate zones?

Jamusu.

On which zones do you want them to fall?

dslater · Dec 29, 2007

jamusu said:
Yes I do have a teaching aid.

It is named, "The Zone System for 35MM Photographers", written by Carson Graves. It in my opinion is a great book. The only thing that I am confused on is opening up or closing down f/stops to the appropriate zone. This is why I posted the zones and their corresponding f/stops.

Do I have it written correctly? Based on my four scenarios, am I opening up and closing down in the right directions to get to the appropriate zones?

Jamusu.

It's basically correct if you're going for a "literal" representation and your meter reads some shutter speed at f/5.6. Whatever you meter on is placed on Zone 5 - this is what the meter tries to do. In the case of snow, you usually want it to fall on zone 7 - bright white with detail, so you open up 2 stops from what you meter says to place the snow on zone 7. For the black hair, you close down 2 stops to place the hair on zone 3. sunlit Caucasian skin is usually placed on zone 6 - so open up 1 stop. Brown hair on zone 4 so close down 1 stop.

Christopher Walrath · Dec 29, 2007

OK. Say you want to expose a field of snow and the meter reading say to use an exposure value of EV15 assuming an additive light value of 8 for the glare from the snow in open angled light and a film speed value of 7 for ISO 400 film. This would be any of the following: 1/1000@f/5.6 - 1/500@f/8 - 1/250@f/11 - 1/125@f/16 - 1/60@f/22 - 1/30@f/32. Now you know that the meter is going to make the snow come out dark gray, Zone V. If handholding a camera with, say, a 28mm wide angle lens for a nice landscape shot, you want your shutter speed to stay at least 1/60th of a second. So you might choose 1/60@f/22. You have placed an EV of 15 on Zone V. You want the snow to be bright in the image so you want to raise this to Zone VII so you increase exposure by two stops, for example, to 1/60@f/11 so that EV13 is now on Zone V and EV15 is now on Zone VII.

I am assuming you are getting your 'Zone Stops' from an image of the Zones written on a small piece of paper or tape attached to a light meter with aperture numbers located just beside them. If so, what happens when you rotate the face of the meter? Then your apertures no longer corrolate to those Zone numbers. In the above example, the Zone V aperture from the meter reading is f/22. When you adjust to brighten the snow, the Zone V aperture is f/11. If you originally went with a 1/125th second shutter speed instead of 1/60, your Zone V aperture would have been f/16.

There is no constant between a lens's aperture and an exposure Zone.

Once you study the ZS and the Exposure Value Index to see the relation between different settings on your canera and how you control how much light reaches your negative, you'll begin to see what we are all talking about. I am just trying to figure how you came to this particular aperture to zone relationship. I hope this helps, if nothing else to show you that what you understand is not quite right, yet. But we'll help get you there if we can. Keep trying. One of us will get it sooner or later and then so will you.

My advice, read Ansel Adams' 'The Negative', take two aspirin and call us in the morning.

(Note - EV - Exposure Value, a specific combination of exposure settings that will provide the same amount of exposure to the film, independent of film speed (this is accounted for in the meter)).

jamusu · Dec 29, 2007

I think I am now more confused than ever. For some odd reason I like the confusion though. I guess that it is due to the info posted which is extremely interesting.

Jamusu.

JBrunner · Dec 29, 2007

Jamusu,

When I asked you on what zone you wished them to fall, that is the essence of the system. Saying caucasian skin on zone VI, is a function of basic sensitometry, and one possible permutation of a zone technique. Exposing the skin on zone V, and developing it to zone VI is also perfectly possible, and in some cases makes a much better negative and resultant print. That is another possible example of the zone system. Just changing a stop for a metered value that is generally known to be 1 (or however many) stops off from V, is just substituting zones for stops from middle gray. Its a good way to think on the way to learning the zone system, but it ain't the zone system. Keep reading, you'll figure it out.

Best,
J

jamusu · Dec 29, 2007

Thanx Jason!

What brand analog meter with caculator would you suggest I purchase?

Jamusu.

dslater · Dec 30, 2007

JBrunner said:
Jamusu,

When I asked you on what zone you wished them to fall, that is the essence of the system. Saying caucasian skin on zone VI, is a function of basic sensitometry, and one possible permutation of a zone technique. Exposing the skin on zone V, and developing it to zone VI is also perfectly possible, and in some cases makes a much better negative and resultant print. That is another possible example of the zone system. Just changing a stop for a metered value that is generally known to be 1 (or however many) stops off from V, is just substituting zones for stops from middle gray. Its a good way to think on the way to learning the zone system, but it ain't the zone system. Keep reading, you'll figure it out.

Best,
J

Trouble is, the OP is using 35mm film, so his control over processing is limited

Chuck_P · Dec 30, 2007

jamusu said:
Yes I do have a teaching aid.

It is named, "The Zone System for 35MM Photographers", written by Carson Graves. It in my opinion is a great book. The only thing that I am confused on is opening up or closing down f/stops to the appropriate zone. This is why I posted the zones and their corresponding f/stops.

Do I have it written correctly? Based on my four scenarios, am I opening up and closing down in the right directions to get to the appropriate zones?

Jamusu.

Yes, when you meter a subject (let's just assume a uniform target with one surface) the camera provides you with the reading, say, 1/30 at f/8, to expose it at middle gray i.e., Zone V. The following example is my paraphrase from this discussion in "The Negative":

- to place it on Zone IV, then 1/30 at f/11
- to place it on Zone III, then 1/30 at f/16
- to place it on Zone II, then 1/30 at f/22
- to place it on Zone I, you may need to do 1/60 at f/22 (maybe your lens won't stop down to f/32, so you have to provide one zone less exposure by keeping the aperture at 22 and reducing the time to 1/60)
- to place the target on Zone 0, then 1/125 at f/22

The above are consecutive exposure "decreases" of the target from Zone V to Zone 0.

Now for consecutive exposure "increases" of the target from Zone V to Zone X; again the Zone V middle gray reading of the target is 1/30 at f/8:

- to place it on Zone VI, then 1/30 at f/5.6
- to place it on Zone VII, then 1/30 at f/4
- to place it on Zone VIII, you may need to do 1/15 at f/4 (maybe your lens won't open up any wider than f/4, so you have to provide one zone more exposure by keeping the aperture at f/4 and increasing the time to 1/15)
- to place it on Zone IX, then 1/8 at f/4
- to place it on Zone X, then 1/4 at f/4
_______________

That is how you can change either the f/stop or the shutter speed to expose a singular target, as in the example above, on any zone of the exposure scale.

With a spot meter, you can do the same thing to any reflective surface that you read in the scene. You will place the luminance of a surface on the exposure scale (typically, not always, but typically you will be "placing" the shadow values) and then you will use the spot meter to read the brighter areas to see where they "fall" on the exposure scale.

Why the term "fall", because when you "place" a shadow value, you will choose, and therefore fix, the camera settings to support that placement. Then, all the other reflective surfaces will "fall" on the scale relative to there brightness.

I hope that gets more to the point of your confusion about the zones and camera settings. Like Jason said, keep it up and you will see bright flashes of light at times. Those will be the light bulbs going off over your head as it starts to come together for you.

Chuck

haris · Dec 30, 2007

As I know, thing is next. You aim your spotmeter at shadow part of scene and get reading for example 1/30 at f11. That way your shadow is on zone V. After that you decide to place your shadow at particular zone, let say zone III. That means 3 stops less from zone V, which is 1/250 at f11. After that you aim spotmeter at highlight part of scene and get for example 1/125 at f16. That is again zone V, but this time your highlight is on zone V. And you want your highlight at for example zone VIII. That would be 1/8 at f11. Now, contrast range between your shadow at zone III (1/250 at f11) and highlight at zone VII (1/8 at f11) is 5 stops, and 5 stops is about limit film can capture. More than that you would not have details both in shadows or/and highlights. Now, you set your camera to 1/250 at f11 and photograph that scene. When develop film you calculate developing time by next formulae (just as example, right extension of time should be determined by testing): N is normal time for developing your filmso, N+10%=N1, N1+10%=N2, N2+10%=N3, etc... As you have highlight at zone VIII, that is 3 stops higher than zone V you had when metering highlights, you use N3 developing. So, you use metering to get shadows and developing to get highlights.

By your theory you meter whole scene and for example get 1/125 at f11. It is OK, but id doesn't tells you where your shadows or highlihgts are, so you don't know in which zone to place your shadows or how to develop your film to place highlight in zone you want and to get both shadows and highlights details. That is why zone system is not simple few stops less or more than zone V of whole scene.

Or I am totally lost and wrong now

jamusu · Dec 30, 2007

Thanx everyone.

I know that the way that I am using it is not the True Zones System because I am shooting 35mm. I just wanted to know if I had the basic correlation of how to use it understood. Although my options are limited with 35 mm, I think that this is my first step to understanding and using the Zone System if and when I move up to LF.

Jamusu.

dslater · Dec 30, 2007

haris said:
As I know, thing is next. You aim your spotmeter at shadow part of scene and get reading for example 1/30 at f11. That way your shadow is on zone V. After that you decide to place your shadow at particular zone, let say zone III. That means 3 stops less from zone V, which is 1/250 at f11. After that you aim spotmeter at highlight part of scene and get for example 1/125 at f16. That is again zone V, but this time your highlight is on zone V. And you want your highlight at for example zone VIII. That would be 1/8 at f11. Now, contrast range between your shadow at zone III (1/250 at f11) and highlight at zone VII (1/8 at f11) is 5 stops, and 5 stops is about limit film can capture. More than that you would not have details both in shadows or/and highlights. Now, you set your camera to 1/250 at f11 and photograph that scene. When develop film you calculate developing time by next formulae (just as example, right extension of time should be determined by testing): N is normal time for developing your filmso, N+10%=N1, N1+10%=N2, N2+10%=N3, etc... As you have highlight at zone VIII, that is 3 stops higher than zone V you had when metering highlights, you use N3 developing. So, you use metering to get shadows and developing to get highlights.

By your theory you meter whole scene and for example get 1/125 at f11. It is OK, but id doesn't tells you where your shadows or highlihgts are, so you don't know in which zone to place your shadows or how to develop your film to place highlight in zone you want and to get both shadows and highlights details. That is why zone system is not simple few stops less or more than zone V of whole scene.

Or I am totally lost and wrong now

Hi Haris,
A couple of things - first Zone III is 2 stops down from Zone V - not 3 - I'm sure this was a typo. Second, you adjust your processing to expand or contract your scene brightness range. In your example, if you give N+3 processing, your highlight would end up on Zone 10 since you already placed it on Zone 7 by exposing 1/8 at f/11. If you dynamic range were 4 stops and you wanted it to be 5 stops, you would use N+1 processing to expand the highlights. Likewise, if your dynamic range were 7 stops and you wanted it to be 5 stops, you would give N-2 processing to contract the highlights.
Also, B&W film is quite capable of capturing a dynamic range greater than 5 stops - depending on processing, you can capture 10, 11 or 12 stops on the negative - It's the printing paper that is limited.

dslater · Dec 30, 2007

jamusu said:
Thanx everyone.

I know that the way that I am using it is not the True Zones System because I am shooting 35mm. I just wanted to know if I had the basic correlation of how to use it understood. Although my options are limited with 35 mm, I think that this is my first step to understanding and using the Zone System if and when I move up to LF.

Jamusu.

In Ansel Adam's book "The Negative" Ansel recommends over-exposing by 1/2 to 1 stop and giving N-1 development for 35mm film. Then you can adjust the contrast during printing. This is based on the idea that it is easier to take a lower contrast negative and print it on a higher grade paper than it is print a high-contrast negative on a low grade paper.
The Zone System is still very useful for visualizing your final print while you're metering your scene.

RobC · Dec 30, 2007

One very important thing you must know is that assuming that your meter reading gives a zone V reading is NOT true unless you have calibrated your development and printing to make it equate to a zone V. Using Film manufacturers ISO and development times will give a range of approx 7 stops from black to white on grade 2 paper. You have to work out / claibrate your film development and printing so that it gives a 10 stop range. If you don't do that then, the assumption that 1 stop equates to one zone is false.
Your basic interpretation method is correct but only if you have calibrated your film dev to capture 10 stops of brightness range so that it fits the paper at grade 2 or whatever your normal print grade is. Deviate from that and then your asumptions are wrong.
You can calibrate to a 7 stop system, 8 stop system, 9 stop system, 10 stop system, 11 stop system or how ever many you like, but by doing so you change the relationship of how much exposure adjustment equates to a one zone change. If you assume always a 10 zone system but calibrate to a 7 stop system, then each 1 zone adjustment to exposure would become .7 of a stop instead of 1 stop. If it were a 9 stop system, each 1 zone adjustment would become a .9 stop adjustment.
I realise this complicates things for you, but since I don't think you have calibrated to a 10 stop system (yet) you need to understand why what you are doing may not give the results you expect and how you can rectify it.

In short you must do your neg and print calibration first before you can be sure that placing your zones where you want them will work as you expect.

haris · Dec 30, 2007

dslater,

Thank you for corrections. I just wanted to give example, I am sure I made severasl errors.

But, I exposed on 1/250 f11 in my example for shadows. I thought I need to develop N+3 because that is zone VIII of highlights, because metering of highlights gives 1/30 f16 and that is zone V for highlights.

Anyway, thanks for correcting me.

dslater · Dec 30, 2007

haris said:
dslater,

Thank you for corrections. I just wanted to give example, I am sure I made severasl errors.

But, I exposed on 1/250 f11 in my example for shadows. I thought I need to develop N+3 because that is zone VIII of highlights, because metering of highlights gives 1/30 f16 and that is zone V for highlights.

Anyway, thanks for correcting me.

Yes - I see now - with your exposure placing the highlight on Zone 5, N+3 processing would expand it, although it might not quite reach Zone 8 since Zone 5 is a mid-tone instead of a highlight - the expansion effect is greater for higher zones than it is for lower zones. of course, testing can be used to determine development for the expansion you want.

jamusu · Dec 30, 2007

Rob.

Is it possible to calibrate my printing and film development with 35 mm? You have not complicated anything. In fact you have heightened my interest.

Jamusu.

Zone System Sequence?

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