Zone System Questions for 35mm

Bayard · May 6, 2017

Okay, now that I have found a group of experts I trust (namely you guys)

1. Is the Zone System applicable to 35mm Black and White Film? If not entirely, what parts of Adams' and White's work can still be used on 35mm film effectively?

2. Do I need a dedicated spot meter, or will the TTL meter on modern cameras work, either in spot or matrix mode (I have heard whispers of both).

3. Is anyone using a digital camera to take test shots of a subject, and successfully using those readings to expose your film?

Thanks in advance,

Bayard

cliveh · May 6, 2017

No, I don't think the zone system is applicable to 35mm.

film_man · May 6, 2017

1 The zone system works for all formats.
2 Yes, if you know how to use the meter. If it is a spot meter well, there it is. If it is a matrix/averaging/whatever-it-is-called you need to know how it meters. Some (particularly older ones) will be centre weighted so will be affected more by what's in the center of the frame. Newer ones will be clever enough to ignore a point light in the frame, while older ones will be fooled. And so on.
3 Ha...

Craig75 · May 6, 2017

you could try this

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...ywords=The+Zone+System+for+35MM+Photographers

I cant remember much about it or even if i could recommend it but it does explain his zone system for 35mm and for $5you've got nothing to lose (apart from $5)

Personally you are better off getting a 35mm standard scene to print on grade 3 and using variable contrast paper to do the tonal adjustments traditionally done with changing development time for individual scenes. VC paper is a very powerful tool.

bdial · May 6, 2017

As mentioned it applies to all formats, but is harder to do for roll films because you can't modify development for each image as you can with sheet film.
A spot meter isn't essential either, but makes life easier for metering small areas.

pentaxuser · May 6, 2017

I have the Carson Graves book and would recommend it. A worthwhile read in my opinion

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · May 6, 2017

I have that book, too. Actually, an older edition I picked up way back in the 90's. It's quite good.

Paul Howell · May 6, 2017

AA shot 35mm and 6X6 using the zone. I keep short load it own rolls of 4 to 6 shots on hand so that I can + or - development, and I often bracket, when in zone frame of mind.

Chan Tran · May 6, 2017

1. You can use the Zone system with 35mm. You will have to based on one standard development or shoot very short roll.
2. In camera spot meter is OK but it must be a spot meter. Matrix is not usable for the Zone system.
3. Yes I can do that although so many said you can't.

MattKing · May 6, 2017

If you understand what the Zone System can accomplish for you, and are able to apply it to large format, single sheet development, then you can:
1) apply it fully to 35mm if you can set things up so entire rolls are exposed for the same development (N, N+1, N-1, etc.);
2) apply to 35mm some of the general principles such as visualization and expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
One caution though. Films are quite different now than when the Zone System was created. The potential for contraction and expansion is different now. Also, some of the development controls may impact the grain in 35mm.

narsuitus · May 6, 2017

I am no expert but that does not prevent me from giving you my opinion.

Bayard said:
1. Is the Zone System applicable to 35mm Black and White Film? If not entirely, what parts of Adams' and White's work can still be used on 35mm film effectively?

The first part of the Zone System (using a spot exposure meter to measure and interpret the lighting in a scene) is applicable for obtaining the correct exposure for 35mm film.

The second part of the Zone System (adjusting the film development time of the individual sheets of film) is not applicable for altering the dynamic range of the individual images on a roll of 35mm film.

Bayard said:
2. Do I need a dedicated spot meter, or will the TTL meter on modern cameras work, either in spot or matrix mode (I have heard whispers of both).

A spot meter works best to measure precisely the darkest part of the scene, the lightest part of the scene, and the middle part of the scene in order for the photographer to adjust the exposure to match the dynamic range of the film.

The matrix metering mode is designed to take all those readings and then use a Zone System type algorithm to determine the correct exposure without much input from the photographer.

Bayard said:
3. Is anyone using a digital camera to take test shots of a subject, and successfully using those readings to expose your film?

I sometimes use the light meter in compact digital camera to determine the correct exposure and to take test shots before I expose the more expensive medium format and/or large format film. However, when taking long exposures, I have to adjust the exposure to correct the film reciprocity failure.

greg zinselmeier · May 6, 2017

1. If ALL the scenes have the same brightness range, or your roll film is short ( buy bulk, load 10 frames worth?), or same scene shot from different perspectives, under same illumination. then you can use one time to develope to C.I. you want. I think it is difficult but not impossible, to use an in house light meter to set your exposure. I think a hand held spot meter is preferred.

IMO, your tests should be done on film, using a densitimeter to get proper densities for each zone, setting up first with one film, one developer, to set n, n-1, n-2, n+1, n+2. digital is a different beast entirely all together.

Alan Gales · May 6, 2017

I'd forget the Zone system for roll film cameras. If you are really interested in the Zone system then pick up a cheap 4x5 monorail with lens. If you can develop and print 35mm film then you can do the same with 4x5.

Matrix metering is great. I used it on a Pentax 645 Nll and also digital cameras. It's quick (you don't have to think about it) and accurate and in my opinion, perfect for a 35mm camera.

Alan W · May 6, 2017

I'm with Clive.Zone system is for large format.If you're exposing(and can develop)1 frame at a time,the Zone System is useable.Otherwise just shoot the roll and develop it,a little over or underexposure is acceptable.The content of the image is what counts.

John Koehrer · May 6, 2017

The price of film bodies being peanuts and you REALLY want to be a zoney.
carry three bodies, for N, N+1 and N-1 developing.
A spot meter isn't really needed, I think Fred Picker had a system using an incident meter.

chriscrawfordphoto · May 6, 2017

The Zone System works great for 35mm film. I've been doing it for more than 25 years now.

I have found that the need to develop individual frames is simply not an issue. In all the years I have been shooting, I have NEVER needed to give N+ developing. Ever. I do use N- developing fairly often, but I generally don't have a problem shooting a roll in the same light before needing to develop it. I always carried two bodies in case of that.

fstop · May 6, 2017

okay, now that I have found a group of experts I trust (namely you guys)

Gee I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

Arklatexian · May 6, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I have the Carson Graves book and would recommend it. A worthwhile read in my opinion

pentaxuser

+1

Arklatexian · May 6, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I have the Carson Graves book and would recommend it. A worthwhile read in my opinion

pentaxuser

+1

Alan Gales · May 6, 2017

fstop said:
Gee I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

That's the Vodka kicking in!

Sirius Glass · May 7, 2017

The Zone System works for 35mm and 120 as far as setting a zone to a particular print zone. The N+1 and N-1 are not worth wasting a whole roll of film.

fstop · May 7, 2017

Alan Gales said:
That's the Vodka kicking in!

Woodka, da. Don't want to drink too much, I might zone out.

you groan now but you'll be tellin it

cliveh · May 7, 2017

The Zone system is a fuzzy concept that detracts from a good image.

pdeeh · May 7, 2017

cliveh said:
No, I don't think the zone system is applicable to 35mm.

film_man said:
The zone system works for all formats.

Y'see, that's why APUG is such a valuable resource.

You always know exactly where you stand.

pentaxuser · May 7, 2017

cliveh said:
The Zone system is a fuzzy concept that detracts from a good image.

For those of us who aren't sure how this is the case, can you expand on this, thanks.

pentaxuser

Chan Tran · May 7, 2017

cliveh said:
The Zone system is a fuzzy concept that detracts from a good image.

Do you think Ansel Adams knew how to use the Zone system? If you think he did then it's not a fuzzy concept as I am sure he was not capable of understanding fuzzy logic.

Zone System Questions for 35mm

Bayard

cliveh

film_man

Craig75

bdial

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Paul Howell

Chan Tran

MattKing

Moderator

narsuitus

greg zinselmeier

Alan Gales

Alan W

John Koehrer

chriscrawfordphoto

fstop

Arklatexian

Arklatexian

Alan Gales

Sirius Glass

fstop

cliveh

pdeeh

pentaxuser

Chan Tran

Zone System Questions for 35mm

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