Zone system question

Finally, I am starting to play with the zone system. In short:

I get zone I with a density of 0.26 above f+b, zone V is 0.78 and zone VIII is 1.11

The film is Delta 400 and the developer is Pyrocat HD, minimal agitation for 18 minutes at 20C. I use EI of 400. I measure the density using a Minolta 1 degree luminance meter mounted on a tripod above a light box. I can repeat density measurements within +-0.02.

That all would point to a higher EI and longer development, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

You might want to confirm your printing densities by making some paper prints because Pyrocat HD is a staining developer and stain is probably not included in your density measurements.

If stain adds effective density, your contrast might be just right for normal Zone System even though you think you measured a little lower contrast.

Because you are using a spotmeter as densitometer, I would recommend discounting the low density reading of 0.26

In other words, don't go and change your EI to 1000 even though the numbers seem to indicate that - I think changing EI to 1000 would be an incorrect conclusion drawn from your Zone I reading. It might be wrong due to your choice of measurement tool.

I was planning on that tonight. My prints made from film exposed and developed under similar conditions look alright, certainly not overexposed by a stop (or two). I am relatively new to staining developers...

You cannot properly measure density values of a stained negative with a spot meter. As Bill said, I'd confirm printing density with actual prints, then go make photographs and adjust EI, as needed, for proper shadow values.

Have fun!

Back from the dark room: zone 0 is completely black (by definition), visual comparison with a gray card indicates that my zone III should really be zone V. Zones XIII and IX are white, that is the same color as unexposed but developed and fixed paper. It appears I am off by two (!) zones, at this point I am tempted to assume that I completely bungled the film exposure.

Fraunhofer said:

Finally, I am starting to play with the zone system. In short:

I get zone I with a density of 0.26 above f+b, zone V is 0.78 and zone VIII is 1.11

The film is Delta 400 and the developer is Pyrocat HD, minimal agitation for 18 minutes at 20C. I use EI of 400. I measure the density using a Minolta 1 degree luminance meter mounted on a tripod above a light box. I can repeat density measurements within +-0.02.

That all would point to a higher EI and longer development, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Zone I is too high but Zone V and Zone VII are about right.I'dlower exposure and keep the development

zone I with a density of 0.26 above f+b

Click to expand...

Check for an error in your exposure of the zone I frame.

Maybe you should try with a non-staining developer before changing your exposure method. try with a simple d-76 or ID11 and see of that'll change your densities/printing values.
Peter

Ran a new roll and it seems that an EI of 800 maybe about right, based on assuming that even with my rigged density measurements same density on film corresponds to the same print density. Need to verify this by printing the new negs, though, to be sure.

In any case: is this remotely possible? The only numbers I could find with Google for this film/developer combination indicate an EI much closer to 400...

It totally could be.. if your shutter speed was 50% slow. Tell some stories about the steps you take for testing and more clues will emerge...

Here's my testing procedure:

RB67, 180mm lens, gray card on black background, exposures for EI800:
Zone V f5.6 1/2 for 1/15s (measured with a Minolta IIIf and the 5 degree attachment)
Zone I f22 1/2 for 1/15s
Zone VIII f4 1/2 for 1/4s

Similar for EI200 and EI400 with times ranging from 1/8s, 1/4s to 1/2s respectively.

Now I have this lens only for about 2 months, so it could be off. I checked negs I have taken on the same film but developed in DDX at EI400 and they look good (taken at 1/30s and 1/60s with apertures from f4.5 to f11).

The Minolta meter compares well with a 30-year old Porst meter and the meter in my 40-year old Spotmatic F (and that one has been used for many rolls in the 20 years I have owned it).

Perhaps a clue here is that some meters don't measure middle gray as 18% reflectance?

You do not play with the Zone System, the Zone System plays with you!

Gerald C Koch said:

You do not play with the Zone System, the Zone System plays with you!

Click to expand...

I can see that, there is a programming language called brainf#@k and I do see the similarities all too clearly

In any case, I may have found out something:

Went back and cut up the ten frames from my first test roll at EI400 and made a step wedge. Now I can print all 10 zones in one pass and can make a test strip with many exposures. Turns out I made a mistake the first time, I just made zone 0 as black as I could. This time I made zone 0 as black as I could as well, but also made sure that zone I had a black just barely distinguishable from zone 0. Despite the high zone I density, I now get a match of zone V with the gray card and I get a zone IX with perceptible very light gray, just enough to tell it from all white.

Conclusion: screw densities (at least with staining developer) and be careful in selecting your print time. I am sure, I could knock myself out by finding out whether my EI now is 320 or 400 and get a blue filter for my luminance meter etc. I also just could go and try to take what I already learned and make some real pictures

Your visual method (i.e., without density readings) is the way I've been calibrating for years and it works well. And it's good you are now reverting to closer to box speed; 800 was just an indication that something in your test procedure was wrong (FWIW I usually come out 1/3-2/3-stop slower than box speed with my tests). Using a meter as a desitometer and dealing with staining developers at the same time is just asking for skewed results.

The Zone System is a visualization tool, not strict sensitometry. Our tests are largely inaccurate and only useful to help us refine our processing a bit. Having the Zone Ruler will help you learn to visualize what's going to happen with your print values before you snap the shutter. You'll be better able to choose the right development scheme or decide not to waste film on a subject to start with. Now just keep an eye on things and tweak as needed.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

The Zone System is a visualization tool, not strict sensitometry. Our tests are largely inaccurate and only useful to help us refine our processing a bit. Having the Zone Ruler will help you learn to visualize what's going to happen with your print values before you snap the shutter.
Best,

Doremus

Click to expand...

I agree, my goal was never to get some curves within 1/10 of a stop, I really just would like to have a visual guide how exposure and tone in the final print relate to each other. And that is accomplished for now.

Zone 1 is the critical one you need to decide how much detail you want for zone 1 graduation, or that is subjective...