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Zone System one body question

henk@apug

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Hi,

I planning to start to use the zone system. Since I shoot roll film and have
only one body I have the following question about N-1, N, N+1 :

If I develop for N, can I get N-1 and N+1 by changing paper grades,
or has this major disadvantages over developing the film for N-1, N+1 ?

Thanks !
 
In the Negative Ansel Adams suggests using N-1 for roll film.

But yes if you've done your own Film speed & dev time tests N-1 & N+1 can be replaced by using paper contrast.

Ian
 
It really doesn't seem to be the (full) zone system if you're not changing the development of the film based on the brightness range of the scene. Not to say that a huge amount of improvement is not likely once you know the real speed and contrast range of your film/development/camera. If i remember,,, N-1 dropped the contrast, or increased the range of the film by one stop? Geeze,,, for a book beside my chair, and refering to it at least twice a week, my 60 year old grey hair doesn't seem to keep this sort of stuff near as well as a while back.

So, what I think you're heading toward, a film speed, development and exposure for the shadow detail, and low enough contrast negatives that the highlights never (almost never) block, so the paper grade is picked based on the highlight values you'd like printed?
 
If you've lost the detail in the negative (because you didn't develop the highlights well) you will likely not have anything to work with under the enlarger. A low contrast negative could probably be recovered with high contrast paper, but I don't think you'll be happy the other way around, if you weren't able to preserve the details in the negative in the first place.

One alternative is to plan your shooting so that your roll contains exposures of a consistent contrast range. In other words, shoot all your high contrast images, then shoot your low contrast images on a separate roll. Or, sacrifice some film when the contrast changes - change out the rolls, and mark on the roll how to develop it.

I think this will provide a better solution, with the tradeoff of it being more wasteful of film. But since you're souping it yourself, the only one that need notice is you...

The other alternative is more camera bodies! Or 4x5...
 
I had a professor in college that carried 3 camera bodies. One for N development, one for N+ and one for N-. To too much of an obsession of the Zone System for me. I carry one body where I expose for the shadows then I develop normally. I use different paper grades to control contrast. Having 3 camera bodies is a pain in the neck..literally.
 
Chuck, I agree with you that lost detail will not be recoverable.

I think I might do this : I will look for an extra film back for my mamiya 645 pro tl to do N-1; higher contrast I will try with paper grade changes.

I have completed my system speed test and it came out 80ASA for 125PX film. I am currently developing my films for the dev test. (5 rolls shot at 80ASA, 1 normal dev, one film +15%, one film +30%, 1 film -15%, 1 film -30%). Sunday I would like to have finished with them and test for MTFMB and then check which roll gives the best VII/VIII zones.

4x5,... my dream. Maybe one day...
 
I think that's the point of the sister forum's recomendations (those who shall not be mentioned and have turned to the non-analog printing options). If you fully expose the shadows and develope normally, you block up the hi lights. You do loose detail in a negative by getting way into the DMAX/shoulder of the films curve. If you pull process, and expose fully enough for the shadows to hold good detail, even though the hilight areas on the negative don't appear fully dark, the detail for the hilights is still there, just further down the curve. Now, that may not print well, even with hi contrast paper. It's the reason for the Zone system (as best I know).


 
Michael... guess I need to get out of my fp 4 and plus x world and try some of the modern stuff,,, huh?

I've actually been shopping for a roundtuit into the T-Max world, just that I've started shooting 4x5, grain isn't so much an issue. After I get back into the film darkroom and get comfortable again, I'll head that way for sure.
 
The best ways if you have just one camera are to roll your own short rolls (as short as you would like), or to have a changing bag with you, and clip off and stow everything you have shot that is intended for one development before shooting a shot that requires another development. Both ways are a P.I.T.A. Rather than that, I'd just get one, or maybe two, more cameras, or invest in an inexpensive used camera that uses exchangeable magazines, like a Bronica S2 or SQ, Pentax 645, or one of the Mamiya 645s from the '80s. (The Mamiya 645s from the '70s did not have exchangeable magazines.)
 
..."Everyone has their own reasons for using a particular film"

In my case, it's mostly mental inertia. I make an effort to change things up every so often just to keep things interesting. I had good images with tri-x in the 60's, plus x, pan f, Kodacolor X, which was for some reason one of my favorite films, probably because it was an accidental intro into the one year, one camera, one film experience. If I was as focused as I should be, I'd take the time to do that again.
 
The comment about three camera bodies,,, quite a bit easier to deal with than most any 4x5. One camera around your neck, and two bodies with the camera case/bag? If you're taking the time to spot meter and taking notes anyway, getting out a second body doesnt' really seem that extreme. Thru the lens metering, and standard developemnt around the neck with your favorite lens and everything else in the case and takes a bit more time.
 
A couple of random notes: Either two bath development or compensating high dilution developments may make it a bit easier to hold highlights when practical considerations prevent full deployment of the zone system. I have been using a Pentax 67 with two bath development a D-23 ish developer with a borax second bath. That combination keeps highlights pretty printable. I tend to like a dense negative with tons of shadow detail, and frequently bump the contrast up a little as needed. I probably shoot somewhere between N-1 or N-2 more than anything else and rarely go for N+ developments. I bump contrast with paper first and only go for heavier development of film if the subject is reeeeeally flat and I'm going to shoot a lot of that subject at one time.

If you are using an interchangeable back MF camera, you can use the zone system to as full an extent as you wish, as long as you keep each roll confined to a given development plan. Just get as many backs as you actually use different development times / plans at one time.
 
If I develop for N, can I get N-1 and N+1 by changing paper grades,
Thanks !

Yes.
When high-quality Multigrade paper became available in the 70s I started "N-only" developing for all formats and films and have never looked back.
 
Zone System for Roll Film

I shoot sheet film, and use (my version of) the Zone System. I spot meter and develop each sheet separately using a number of different development schemes.

That said, if I were shooting roll film, especially 35mm and/or handheld and spontaneous styles, I would ditch all the development variations and just choose one, standard, time for all my negs. I would also probably use my in-camera meter and base exposures on an E.I. determined by testing with that meter.

I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately and have arrived at the following method for metering and developing roll film in a modified exposure/development system that retains the heart of the Zone System but allows much more rapid shooting. In this system there is only one, "Normal," development time; different contrast negatives are dealt with by changing paper grades/contrast.

First, with small film, you should standardize your negative contrast to print well on a slightly higher contrast grade paper, I'd use grade 3. This allows the negatives to be developed to a smaller density range and decreases grain.

Next, decided how you want to meter, either "placing the shadows" or using the "averaging method" along with an in-camera meter ("intelligent" in-camera meters are remarkably good for most subjects). If you, like me, would use an in-camera averaging method, skip the next paragraph.

Exposure Method for Shadow Metering
If you choose to "place the shadows," then meter an important shadow and place it on the appropriate Zone, e.g., Zone III for blacks with detail or Zone IV for "luminous" fully detailed shadows. Do your E.I. and development tests to arrive at "Normal" development and then use that development time for everything. With this metering technique, you should overexpose scenes with low contrast by one stop, i.e., place the shadows higher by a Zone, making sure that the high values do not go past Zone VIII. You can meter the highlights to be sure, but with experience you can accurately identify a low-contrast situation and know when to overexpose without taking the time to meter the highlights to see where they fall. This overexposure gets the shadow values up higher on the film's characteristic curve and gives more separation than less exposure. For very contrasty scenes, just place the shadows as normal and shoot away. The negs will be contrasty, but most films retain adequate separation up to Zone XII and beyond. Just print with a lower contrast grade paper.

Exposure Method for Average Metering
If you decide to use the "averaging" metering method (e.g., in-camera meter), you should determine E.I. and "Normal" development time with that method. With this metering technique, you need to recognize contrasty situations (as opposed to recognizing the low-contrast situations using the "place the shadows method") and then overexpose one stop for high-contrast situations and two stops for extremely high-contrast, very bright situations (this seems counter-intuitive at first, but is quite logical and correct in this system). You overexpose high-contrast scenes because your meter will tend to expose for a middle value that results in dropping the shadow values. Overexposing compensates for this. You end up with a contrasty negative that you would then print on low-contrast paper. Note that the averaging meter will automatically place shadows higher than normal in a low-contrast situation. This is exactly what you want to get the most separation in the low values.

You can use both methods alternately if you test them both and note the difference in effective E.I. (there may be none, but usually there is a little difference). Just set your E.I. for the method you decide to use at the time: "place the shadows" when you have time and are working carefully, "averaging" when you need speed, or need to rely on the camera's auto-exposure features.

Of course, you may also want to shoot entire rolls in low light and use classic "push-processing" (which is simply underexposing and overdeveloping with the expected loss of shadow detail and increase in contrast) for that "look" as well. In this case, you would rate your film higher and increase development. This would have to be tested as well. However, for the occasional low-light shot mixed in with other exposures on one roll, just use the averaging technique above and print on higher-contrast paper.

This might seem long, but once you have all the above tested and in-hand, so to speak, you have just about all the tools you need to expose and develop printable negatives and still be able to fully utilize the advantages of smaller cameras and roll film. And, you can shoot just about any contrast situation on the same roll and, in all but the most extreme situations, be assured of negatives that will print.

The heart of this method (as with the Zone System) is determining your E.I. and developing time. I recommend using a "proper proof" in which blank, developed film is contact printed so that it is a shade of black almost as black as the maximum paper black. You can do a test strip to determine the "proper-proofing time" and then note it, enlarger head height, lens aperture, etc. for future proofing. Then, using the "proper-proofing time to evaluate your test negatives, adjust exposure so your shadows look as you wish them to and adjust your developing time so that the highlights in a "Normal" scene have the detail you want. It boils down to knowing what to expect.

Once you have your standards set, you can use the "proper proof" as a tool to help you know what grade paper to use. Contrasty scenes will have adequate shadow detail, but the highlights will be overexposed. This means print on a lower-contrast grade paper. Low contrast scenes should have lighter shadows than "normal" and possibly muddy highlights as well. This means print on a higher-contrast grade paper.

Best and good luck,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com
 
Zone System for Roll Film

I shoot sheet film, and use (my version of) the Zone System. I spot meter and develop each sheet separately using a number of different development schemes.
...
http://www.DoremusScudder.com

Your explanation is concise and yet has explained the Zone System for Roll Film better than many, many others have done. In fact it is better than the explanation in most books!

Steve
 
Thanks all for your ideas on this matter.
They are very interesting and helpful for me !
 
Doremus, I'm going to use your "Exposure Method for Shadow Metering" method"

My EI test is done, I'm currently doing the development test.
Thanks again !
 
Boy,,, goes around, comes around. I think we were doing that same thing with color printing back in the 70/80's under the name of clear edge metering. Just a meter on the easle of the enlarger, take a look at the unexposed edge of the negative and use that for the exposure and preliminary color pack selection.

 
Compensating for subject contrast through film development is very similar to compensating for negative contrast with variable-contrast (VC) papers. This does not mean that VC papers have replaced the Zone System altogether. The Zone System delivers a perfect negative, and VC papers are very tolerant of less than perfect negatives. But, when used to get the most out of a mediocre negative, VC papers leave less room to adjust for local image-contrast needs. However, when used together, Zone System and variable-contrast papers provide more creative flexibility than either one possibly could alone. For a fine-art printer, this is not an either/or decision. Both are powerful tools in their own right.
 
VC paper is of sufficiently high quality that you can easily handle a negative that has a grade (or more) too much or too little contrast...

...but it is not really the Zone System if you always use one development time.

So, all you are doing is testing to find out how to place tones via reflected light metering, and then going ahead and placing those tones when exposing, not using the Zone System.

This is not to take anything away from what you are doing. It will work fine. It doesn't have to be the Zone System. (In fact, it probably shouldn't be for general purposes, if you ask me...but you didn't ask me.) I'm just sayin'.....the Zone System it ain't.
 
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