Zone System: Development by lab

Darryl Roberts

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Hi,

I have a 4x5 camera, love shooting black and white. I have no desire to do darkroom work, developing, enlarging....

Will the Zone system benefit me since I have my sheets lab developed?

Advanced thank you.
 

BrianShaw

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Are you satisfied with your current metering method and the results?

With lab processing you are mostly restricted to “normal” development. Not a problem in most cases.

Zone system techniques might be useful when the scene is “not normal” and not well images using general-coverage reflected light metering or incident light metering. Dealing with those situations is essential. Zone system includes one way of doing that.

But don’t get too carried away with Zone System if you’re not developing and printing.
 

Bill Burk

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I would go to a lab which could develop my film to a specified contrast index. If they can do that we could work out what you would specify for N, N+ and N- numbers depending on your enlarger and paper.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Darryl Roberts said:
Hi,

I have a 4x5 camera, love shooting black and white. I have no desire to do darkroom work, developing, enlarging....

Will the Zone system benefit me since I have my sheets lab developed?

Advanced thank you.
Click to expand...
No, to get benefit rom the ZoneSystem; you should develop and print your own film;It may work with a qualified lab but, the success would depend on very close communication between the lab and you and would without doubt get very frustrating.
 

Paul Howell

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With or without custom work, knowing what developer and time you lab uses using the zone system to find your E.I for your camera, meter, and film combo will assist getting a proper negative. Have you contacted your lab to see if they will custom developed for - or + for contraction or expansion?
 

BrianShaw

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If you are willing to change one of your conditions you might be a lot happier… developing B&W is easy and affordable. I avoided it for years because I thought it took a lot of time and I really didn’t want chemistry stored in the house while my kids were small. But paying $5/sheet plus postage started to make me shoot less and less LF. I bought a Stearman Press SP-445, bigger changing bag, a few 500ml beakers, and chemistry. Already had a darkroom timer. Developing 4 sheets takes about an hour, including cleanup of the kitchen. One-shot chemistry method eliminates a lot of the storage issues; least thrifty but most convenient. I think total investment was about $200, which sounds expensive until you divide by $5 and see that the investment is quickly recouped. That will make ZS manipulation of negative a lot easier and totally within your control. And even for “normal” development… there is a real sense of wonder and accomplishment that can’t be had when using lab services!
 
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Darryl Roberts

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Thank you. I live in a one bedroom apartment, with a small-medium sized kitchen.
 

Alex Benjamin

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Yes, it will.

To a point.

Zone system is about realizing how you want the scene to look: do I want a lot or not too much detail in the shadow? how much detail do I want in the highlights? Should I therefore put metered middle grey at middle grey (zone V)? A step or 1/2 step higher or lower? What should I therefore place in zone II, IV, VI or VII? With a good spot meter, you should be able to get excellent results.

I say "should" because there are two caveats. First is, as others mentioned, that you won't be able to do contraction or expansion, meaning that if your scene has a very high, or very low dynamic range, you'll have to compromise. Two solutions to that problem: #1, don't shoot scenes with very high or very low dynamic range (not always a choice) or #2, compromise. #2 is what I do. Not that I don't find the N+ or N- development interesting or necessary; it's just that I don't have time to do all the testing that goes with it.

Second problem is more difficult. By sending your film at the lab, you don't necessarily have the choice of developer. Some will make you film faster, others slower, and either of them will render completely useless all the visualisation and metering work you did when taking the picture.

My advice would therefore be to pick a serious lab that works with more than one developer and that can let you ask for the one you want - that, in turn, will depend on which film you use. If they won't let you chose, at least ask which developer they use. I learned that the hard way recently. I had too many films to develop and sent some of them to a lab. I should have specifically asked for Rodinal, but they souped the Fomapan 100 in Kodak T-Max developer, with disastrous results (probably also developed them at a higher temp than needed).

Sorry for the long answer. Shorter one is yes, even if you won't benefit from the full range of what the ZS has to offer, you'll learn immensely about photography.
 

Bill Burk

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RalphLambrecht said:
No, to get benefit rom the ZoneSystem; you should develop and print your own film;It may work with a qualified lab but, the success would depend on very close communication between the lab and you and would without doubt get very frustrating.
Click to expand...
Though I would want a lab to accept contrast index aims. And certainly a good lab “should” know how to do it, I don’t know any labs that do.

If I pretended to be a lab and you handed me a roll of film (or sheets) and asked me to develop it to a certain contrast index I certainly could do it. It only takes getting some of the same film and doing some sensitometry on it to get the developing time for the contrast you want.

There is a direct relationship between contrast index and Zone System (given some of the variables like enlarger and paper).
 

BrianShaw

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Bill Burk said:
If I pretended to be a lab and you handed me a roll of film (or sheets) and asked me to develop it to a certain contrast index I certainly could do it.
Click to expand...
How would you price such a service? I would think this to make the development so expensive that it might be unaffordable by most folks.
 

MattKing

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Just ask for a push development, or a pull development.
Many labs offer that, and if the lab is a quality one, the results will be similar.
The cost will be higher for the pushed or pulled sheets, but it should be predictable.
You will need to calibrate your approach to what the lab does - might end up with something different than an exact N+1 or N-1 - but you certainly can expect expansion and contraction.
Or as indicated, develop your own. A Paterson tank with a MOD 54 insert is another workable option in a small apartment.
 
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Darryl Roberts

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Thank you. I'm starting to lean toward doing it myself, which I have done before years ago in a traditional darkroom, but hated the smell.
 

Paul Howell

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You can use low odor chemistry, instead of tanks or trays use Beyond the Zone System tubes, if you don't want to do your testing for E.I the View Camera Store will test, you supply the film, for $49.00. Beyond the zone system is somewhat different than the zone, but follows many of the same practices.
 

Bill Burk

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BrianShaw said:
How would you price such a service? I would think this to make the development so expensive that it might be unaffordable by most folks.
Click to expand...

Same as push/pull. Just different words for the same thing. I would create and work from a Time/CI chart.
 

Lachlan Young

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Simple answer: find a custom lab/ printer who understands what you want to do & work with them. While it won't be as cheap as the very high throughput labs, you will likely find that a good custom lab will know exactly what you are after - and should know the ins & outs of their own processing setup very well.
 

Doremus Scudder

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The answers so far seem to demonstrate a less-flexible approach to the Zone System than I understand.

My answer to the OP would be:

Certainly you can use the Zone System with lab printing, maybe not with all available "features," but with enough to keep you going till you want to move on to making fine prints yourself or use a custom printing service.

Assuming the lab development and the lab printing is consistent, a couple of tests to find a working E.I. that gives you good shadow detail should be easy. I doubt that any reputable lab is going to underdevelop film, so finding the E.I. that gives the best print the lab can turn out is the goal.

And, you can use the main feature of the Zone System: metering and visualization. I always have maintained that the real advantage of the Zone System is as a visualization tool. If the lab processing is a given, one can still visualize to that benchmark and know well beforehand what result you will most likely get before tripping the shutter.

Depending on the lab, you may get really fine results. As long as the negatives are developed to a contrast index that is in the "window" for making excellent prints, they will be adequate for making good prints in the future even if the current lab prints aren't quite as good as you would like. The next step toward achieving a "fine print" would be to have your best negatives custom printed by a really good printer/printing service (Bob Carnie leaps to mind here). A whole lot of excellent photographers had/have others print their work for them.

Or, at some point in the future, you can get access to a darkroom and make your own fine prints.

FWIW, I was without a darkroom to print in for almost seven years, but was still able to photograph and develop my own negatives. When I finally was able to build my darkroom, I simply started printing where I left off. I've just finished going through the backlog.

Best,

Doremus
 

MattKing

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Load in the light tight bathroom, develop in the kitchen (with extra attention to cleanliness and using relatively benign chemicals).
I've been doing that throughout the 21st century.
 

BrianShaw

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… or as I’ve been doing throughout the 21st century… load in a large changing bag and do as Matt does. It’s a lot easier than I thought it would be.

But only if that’s what you want to do. I successfully used labs to do the processing for many years.
 
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Darryl Roberts

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Great any labs, you used, still operating?
 

Alex Benjamin

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BrianShaw said:
… or as I’ve been doing throughout the 21st century… load in a large changing bag and do as Matt does. It’s a lot easier than I thought it would be.
Click to expand...

It's a good compromise if you want to get more out of the zone system. I won't have access to a large darkroom until sometime next year so I can't enlarge my negs right now. I use a changing tent for all the B&W 4x5, do my development in the bathroom/kitchen, and send the negs to a lab just for scanning.

The enlarging tent is the best investment in photography equipment I've made in a long time, and the money I saved since I've had it by not sending films to a lab has already repaid it.

Film development doesn't smell that strong, especially if you do it in an open kitchen, if that's what's bothering you most.
 

BrianShaw

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Darryl Roberts said:
Great any labs, you used, still operating?
Click to expand...
The Darkroom. San Clemente, CA. On the web; mail order. Always been satisfied.

I still use them for C-41 color. Can’t recall if they do E-6; I think so, though.
 
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