Zone system developing

[tomalophicon]

Hello all,
My library is having an issue getting 'The Negative' for me.

Is there any electronic info out there about developing for the Zone System.
I want to know if there is a table or formula for N+ and N- etc...
Thanks in advance.

Tom.

 

[2F/2F]

The book is in print. You can get it at any decent book store, probably without even having to special order it. You can also probably get it for dirt cheap on E-Bay, or from a local used dealer, or a used dealer via Amazon dot com.

There is no electronic information out there that is worth reading before reading the book, or as a substitute for it.

There are no tables or formulas for N+ and N- in the Zone System except for the ones that you make yourself. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand why you might want to learn about the Zone System in the first place!

I suggest picking up the book and reading it, and also taking it with a grain of salt. All it is is simply one way to go about exposure and development.

At any rate, it is not something I would start learning "just because". You should have a solid reason for it, IMO. This solid reason will come only after a certain degree of previous technical understanding and trial and error (mostly error).

 

[Rick A]

You can get through Amazon.com for under $20, and buy all three AA (Neg, cam, and print) as a set for under $50.

Rick

 

[tomalophicon]

There is no electronic information out there that is worth reading before reading the book, or as a substitute for it.

Thanks very much

 

[Chuck_P]

Hello all,
My library is having an issue getting 'The Negative' for me.

Is there any electronic info out there about developing for the Zone System.
I want to know if there is a table or formula for N+ and N- etc...
Thanks in advance.

Tom.

Can't imagine you having a hard time getting this book.

It is a good read to better understanding of the very old "maxim" in film photography: expose for the shadow densities in the negative and develop for the highlight densities in the negative.

The Negative will help you understand this necessary concept to a much better degree for all of your exposure and development of black and white film, regardless of the ZS.

The Zone System itself is not independent from that "maxim", it is, however, a specific refinement of it, that requires a devoted attention to certain details. It's actually a very fluid way of thinking about the entire process from exposure to development to printing the negative.

 

[mikebarger]

If you want a small inexpensive book with pretty easy to read zone instructions, you might look for one of Fred Pickers books. I've seen them in the 3 dollar range on ebay.

Mike

 

[CBG]

... If you don't understand that, then you don't understand why you might want to learn about the Zone System in the first place! ...

If the OP wasn't asking about how to get info on the basics of the zone system, the above comment might be more helpful.

... There is no electronic information out there that is worth reading before reading the book, or as a substitute for it ...

Using the search box, the google search box, at the top of the page on this site, enter "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" including the quotation marks. The same search - quotes and all - used in search engines elsewhere will also dig up a lot of information. Some will be very confusing to the newcomer, but warts and all, that's where understanding begins.

There is quite a bit of information right here on this site. Since there really is not one single zone system, but rather a host of related systems and ways of putting them into action, the information one digs out has to be taken with a grain, not of salt, but perhaps skepticism and investigative discernment. All the ways of deploying the zone system concept begin with the "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" concept and then find their individual ways outward from that point.

... At any rate, it is not something I would start learning "just because". You should have a solid reason for it, IMO. This solid reason will come only after a certain degree of previous technical understanding and trial and error (mostly error) ...

There is something of a bootstrapping issue here; one needs a certain amount of knowledge just to start down the path to having a "solid reason". Mere curiosity is reason enough to start asking questions, as the OP has done here.

Regardless, the suggestion to the poster to buy the book/s is right on the money.

 

[bdial]

It's very common in used books stores, at least around here, perhaps not so much in Australia though. If you want, pm me and I'll hook you up with one of the local booksellers that can sell it to you at a resonable cost.
I agree with Mike, however, that Fred Picker's Zone IV Workshop book is much easier to understand, and is a better introduction to the zone system. It's not quite so common though.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

I picked all three of Adams' series up on Amazon.Cheap and good quality.It is not casual reading although easier than a textbook.

 

[tomalophicon]

Cheers everyone, maybe I should just buy it instead of waiting for someone to return it to the library.
I've read the other 2 in the series and feel an emptiness at not having read The Negative.

 

[2F/2F]

The book is in print. You can get it at any decent book store, probably without even having to special order it. You can also probably get it for dirt cheap on E-Bay, or from a local used dealer, or a used dealer via Amazon dot com.

There is no electronic information out there that is worth reading before reading the book, or as a substitute for it.

There are no tables or formulas for N+ and N- in the Zone System except for the ones that you make yourself. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand why you might want to learn about the Zone System in the first place!

I suggest picking up the book and reading it, and also taking it with a grain of salt. All it is is simply one way to go about exposure and development.

At any rate, it is not something I would start learning "just because". You should have a solid reason for it, IMO. This solid reason will come only after a certain degree of previous technical understanding and trial and error (mostly error).

I will paraphrase:

The book is easily obtainable. Try a few other sources.

Read the book first, as it lays out the Zone System (a proper noun, mind you, so there is only one system with that name) as it was originally intended to be laid out. Then start looking elsewhere. However, start with the book itself, or even just the single chapter on the Zone System. It is brief, well written, simple, original, and is the obvious "point A", from which you may later find points of departure.

The question about tables is something that you will realize was a silly question once you learn the first couple of things about the system.

Don't take the System as law or religion. Take it as one person's explanation of their methodology, which you may or may not find useful.

There is no reason to use the Zone System until you understand why you might want to use it. You need some experience with more standard methods to understand why you might want to use the System in the first place. If you are a total beginner, learning the Zone System is dangerous to your over all technical understanding, IMO.

 

[tomalophicon]

I will paraphrase:

The question about tables is something that you will realize was a silly question once you learn the first couple of things about the system.

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[mikebarger]

Opinions vary, but I think a newbie would be well served to learned a system with some methodology rather than stumbling around in the dark.

Mike

 

[Ian Grant]

To answer the OP's question yes there are tables on-line for Zone system development, try looking on Ralph Lambrecht's website.

Ian

 

[alroldan12]

Hi Tom. Try this
Dead Link Removed

Axel

 

[pentaxuser]

The OP seems to be fixed up with a course of action but just to add another book to the list:

The Zone System for 35mm Photographers. It is by Carson Graves. Very readable. Easier going than AA's books IMHO and less technical. It should be entitled "for all roll film photographers" as everything he says is equally applicable to 120 MF users.

I got mine for the enormous sum of £1.35! Analogue is so extortionate these days

pentaxuser

 

[jerry lebens]

It doesn't go quite as far as N+ & N- development but the most streamlined "zone system" (as opposed to The Zone System) I've ever seen was published back in the 70's in the Goldfinger catalogue, the forerunner of Silverprint. As I recall it, Goldfinger was the first business to import things like the Kodak Tray Siphon and Agfa Record Rapid, Protriga & Brovira brands into the UK back in the 70's ; thus making it possible for photographers to pursue 'fine printing' in the uk.

I seem to remember that this system was based upon Paul Caponigro's system - itself designed to be a condensed, more practical, application of AA's original system.

Silverprint has it online here : http://www.silverprint.co.uk/pdf/Goldfinger.pdf

It's worth a read, not just for the system but as a reminder of Britain back in the 70's. From the ringbound cyclostyle printing, you'd think it was Russian underground samizdat literature! The zone part takes just a couple of A5 pages in the middle of what has got to be one of the best "how to do it" manuals of photography I've ever seen. And to think, it was a freebie, too!

Hope it's of use and interest.

Regards
Jerry

 

[Chuck_P]

I've read the other 2 in the series and feel an emptiness at not having read The Negative.

I don't see any problem with diving right into it. And I strongly recommend that you keep the text handy if you decide to rely more on some other text. It is, essentially, the horses mouth, so to speak and is not as difficult to read as it is always touted to be, IMO.

If you want to start out slowly, then you can just read the first three chapters: "Visualization and Image Values", "Light and Film", and "Exposure" and learn simply what any photographer should learn regardless of format or the Zone System itself, also IMHO. You can even skip to chapters 8 ("Darkroom Processes") and 9 ("Darkroom Equipment and Procedures") and learn much about some basics of procesing, again, regardless of the Zone System itself.

The remaining chapters are the meat and potatoes of the book interms of Zone System discussion and comprehension. Chapter 7---I've never really given much thought in terms of my own photographic endeavors.

Chapter 4 - "The Zone System"
Chapter 5 - "Filters and Pre-exposure"
Chapter 6 - "Natural Light Photography"
Chapter 7 - "Artificial Light Photography"
and
Chapter 10 - "Value Control in Processing"

Keep in mind that if you are a small or medium format shooter, there's plenty of value to you in this book. So, your application of "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights will be somewhat restricted, less refined on a per negative basis. The ZS, as a system of exposure and development of the negative, is optimized when exposure and processing controls can be applied singularly to a piece of sheet film.

 

[Ian Grant]

Prior to Goldfinger, Agfa used to distribute their papers & chemistry themselves in the UK, Peter Goldfield set his company up when Agfa stopped distribution of B&W consumer products in the UK. Later after Peter had rebuilt the market they began re-importing themselves.

Ian

 

[jerry lebens]

Prior to Goldfinger, Agfa used to distribute their papers & chemistry themselves in the UK, Peter Goldfield set his company up when Agfa stopped distribution of B&W consumer products in the UK. Later after Peter had rebuilt the market they began re-importing themselves.

Ian

You're right, bits of memory are coming back slowly. I blame all the selenium toner...

In fact, now I've re-read it, it does go into N+ & N- development at a later stage in the booklet - it just doesn't use those terms.
I still can't get over how much vital information he simply gave away for free.


Regards
Jerry

 

[Ian Grant]

You're right, bits of memory are coming back slowly. I blame all the selenium toner...

In fact, now I've re-read it, it does go into N+ & N- development at a later stage in the booklet - it just doesn't use those terms.
I still can't get over how much vital information he simply gave away for free.


Regards
Jerry

It's the only book anyone really needs all Peter's knowledge in one place

Ian

 

[phritz phantom]

Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
The book is in print. You can get it at any decent book store, probably without even having to special order it. You can also probably get it for dirt cheap on E-Bay, or from a local used dealer, or a used dealer via Amazon dot com.

There is no electronic information out there that is worth reading before reading the book, or as a substitute for it.

There are no tables or formulas for N+ and N- in the Zone System except for the ones that you make yourself. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand why you might want to learn about the Zone System in the first place!

I suggest picking up the book and reading it, and also taking it with a grain of salt. All it is is simply one way to go about exposure and development.

At any rate, it is not something I would start learning "just because". You should have a solid reason for it, IMO. This solid reason will come only after a certain degree of previous technical understanding and trial and error (mostly error).

I will paraphrase:

The book is easily obtainable. Try a few other sources.

Read the book first, as it lays out the Zone System (a proper noun, mind you, so there is only one system with that name) as it was originally intended to be laid out. Then start looking elsewhere. However, start with the book itself, or even just the single chapter on the Zone System. It is brief, well written, simple, original, and is the obvious "point A", from which you may later find points of departure.

The question about tables is something that you will realize was a silly question once you learn the first couple of things about the system.

Don't take the System as law or religion. Take it as one person's explanation of their methodology, which you may or may not find useful.

There is no reason to use the Zone System until you understand why you might want to use it. You need some experience with more standard methods to understand why you might want to use the System in the first place. If you are a total beginner, learning the Zone System is dangerous to your over all technical understanding, IMO.

i'm sorry, but i think your attitude and tone of voice (letters) is uncalled for and not productive here.
i agree that the ansel adams books should be easily available and are basic knowledge and a good read.
but there is lots of info available online- i'm sure that every piece of info from the books is to be found somewhere online today. one just has to collect all the bits and pieces from various places. if this would be the smartest start for a beginner, is a different question. he just asked whether there IS any info or not.

i think the zone sytem is the perfect way to a basic understanding of the photographical process. to me, alike most beginners, photography is just black magic that produces images at first, until i started reading up on the zone system... for no reason at all, except to broaden my knowledge.
and it proved to be very helpful.

i also think that it is this kind of attitude, that it were absolutly impossible to just have a quick/ easy/ free way to play around, that one has to buy and read this and that, that one has to have a camera worth a fortune... this has a lot to do with people being put off classic photography.

to the OP:
there's lots of info online. iirc (it's been a while), barry thornton's site and david kachel's site and one that was called "cicada photography/ zone system or something like this" were very helpful to me. (the latter two are probably offline and only available through webarchive).
and of course webforums. apug probably has more info than all books combined.

 

[2F/2F]

Since when has learning non-Zone System methods been "stumbling around in the dark"?

 

[CBG]

Even if one does not utilize the zone system in it's full incarnation, the ideas that connect the zone system dots are, at least for me, the best conceptual tools for the comprehension of what happens - the essential mechanics so to speak - in the actions and interactions between the pre-visualization of a scene, the camera, light, film, development, and the subsequent processes of interpretation and printing.

Prior to reading and understanding the Adams books, I was stumbling around in the dark. Then again I still may be.

 

[2F/2F]

"he just asked whether there IS any info or not."

...and I said, none worth reading until after you have read the [very short] bits on the Zone System that were actually penned by Ansel Adams! I did not say there is not any, and I did not say there is not any worth reading.

"i think the zone sytem is the perfect way to a basic understanding of the photographical process."

...and I think that it is not.

"i also think that it is this kind of attitude, that it were absolutly impossible to just have a quick/ easy/ free way to play around, that one has to buy and read this and that, that one has to have a camera worth a fortune... this has a lot to do with people being put off classic photography."

It is not that...not at all. It is a suggestion to read the [very short] chapter in which the original author explains the Zone System, before gathering bits and pieces from various sources on the Internet. It is a perfectly sensible and standard procedure in most areas of research and learning, not just regarding the Zone System, to go to original source material first...then to go on to read what others have to say about it. It just happens to be especially easy to do this with the Zone System, since the original writings on it are so brief and simple.