Zone system and spot metering question?

Hi all!

Currently trying to get my head around a few questions with the Zone System and also spot metering.

I'm using a shot from Henry Wessel below as an example of tones I'm trying to achieve.

1.
In order to open up the shadow, say I take a reading of the shadows and my spotmeter is saying 1/125 @ f/8 for Zone V, to open up the shadows I'd therefore shoot 1/60 or 1/30 @ f/8 to place the shadows at Zone VI or VII? I'm trying to achieve tones between V and VIII

But due to brightening up the shadows, the fear is then of blowing out the sky too much, so is it a case then of cutting back development times (N-1) by 20% of normal development times? I know when it comes to printing I can flash the paper to get some tones in extreme highlights but trying to see how it's possible in development. But how many stops of dynamic range will there be?

2.
Also could I therefore set the light meter to a - 2 stop adjustment so when I take a shadow reading for Zone V it would automatically say Zone VII?

3.
And with the Zone System, when it comes to pushing black and white film from box speed of 400 and rating at 800, how does that therefore affect taking readings and placing on the zone system? And is that the same when shooting colour film 400 iso at 200?

Thanks!!!!

Welcome to Photrio.
That example you posted looks like it has already elevated the shadows to Zone V. I don't think you want to go much further.
You will need to meter highlights and mid-tones in order to have enough information to be able to evaluate how much contraction (N-1, N-2, ?) or expansion (N+1, N+2,
?) to develop for.
If you are using expansion or contraction, you can't really intermix a push development or pull development - you would end up working at cross purposes.
It might be possible, with some films, to build up an entire set of Zone System protocols with intentionally under-exposed film - 400 ISO film rated at an EI of 800, instead of its native Zone System EI of 250 - but I'm not sure how.
FWIW, at least some of the effect shown in your example appears to have been accomplished with lighting.
Good luck with your quest!

Scenes like that were used by Nelson, Condit and Jones to determine optimum film speed and darkroom printing reproductions standards for the industry. So, probably box speed + safety factor, normal development for your enlarger and grade 2 paper.



Minor White and others were interested in the Zone system to deal with visualization and printing images more like this:

Jonnymm said:

Hi all! ...
1.
In order to open up the shadow, say I take a reading of the shadows and my spotmeter is saying 1/125 @ f/8 for Zone V, to open up the shadows I'd therefore shoot 1/60 or 1/30 @ f/8 to place the shadows at Zone VI or VII? I'm trying to achieve tones between V and VIII

Click to expand...

No, no, no! Shadows, per definition, are less exposed than Zone V, i.e., Zones II, III and IV. Zones V and VI are a middle values, Zones VII, VIII and IX are high values. You base your exposure on a dark, i.e., shadow value to make sure you don't underexpose. Where the highlights go depends on how you develop and print.

Jonnymm said:

But due to brightening up the shadows, the fear is then of blowing out the sky too much, so is it a case then of cutting back development times (N-1) by 20% of normal development times? I know when it comes to printing I can flash the paper to get some tones in extreme highlights but trying to see how it's possible in development. But how many stops of dynamic range will there be?

Click to expand...

"Brightening up the shadows" too much = overexposure. You only need as much exposure as you need to get the shadow value (Zones II, III and IV) to end up in the appropriate place and not be underexposed. A bit of overexposure is good insurance sometimes, but not several stops over!

Jonnymm said:

2. Also could I therefore set the light meter to a - 2 stop adjustment so when I take a shadow reading for Zone V it would automatically say Zone VII?

Click to expand...

You've got it exactly backward; a -2 -stop adjustment = Zone III, a detailed shadow. Zone VII is a textured white.

Jonnymm said:

3. And with the Zone System, when it comes to pushing black and white film from box speed of 400 and rating at 800, how does that therefore affect taking readings and placing on the zone system? And is that the same when shooting colour film 400 iso at 200?

Click to expand...

If you use the Zone System, you don't "push" or "pull." These are clumsy generalizations the way they are commonly used; the Zone System exposure methods are much more precise and nuanced. Most people who push their film are intentionally underexposing for whatever reason (low light, etc.) and dealing with the lack of shadow detail and muddy highlights by overdeveloping their film. Most Zone System practitioners strive for full exposure of the shadows and then develop their film for different times based on the contrast of the original scene and the amount of contrast they want to achieve in the final print.

Not to be harsh, but you really are off on the wrong track here and need to go back to get the basics under your belt before doing anything else. You'll be glad you did once you realize how confused you are about the subject.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

No, no, no! Shadows, per definition, are less exposed than Zone V, i.e., Zones II, III and IV. Zones V and VI are a middle values, Zones VII, VIII and IX are high values. You base your exposure on a dark, i.e., shadow value to make sure you don't underexpose. Where the highlights go depends on how you develop and print.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply! Oh I know that shadows are II, III, IV. What I was suggesting was to find a dark shadow to meter from with my spotmeter to which the spotmeter would read that as Zone V. What I'm asking was a way to open up the shadows so instead of placing them as a III, or a IV but instead as a V without blowing out the highlights.

ic-racer said:

Scenes like that were used by Nelson, Condit and Jones to determine optimum film speed and darkroom printing reproductions standards for the industry. So, probably box speed + safety factor, normal development for your enlarger and grade 2 paper.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. What is the book that that page came from? (the one with the text?!)

First learn how colors translate into shades of grey. Today a rather easy task with a digital camera. This one skill imo is first key to getting somewhere with zs as it will allow you to better convert the scene into bw image, and lead to fewer surprises down the road in visualizing, metering, interpreting, developing negative and then printing to best intended effect.

ZS is either to expand luminous range to maximum possible, or ... to arrive at an image that is a huge departure from original scene seen in a standard way.

But you will have heard it a ton of times, ZS is all about shadows.

Jonnymm said:

Thanks for the reply. What is the book that that page came from? (the one with the text?!)

Click to expand...

Journal of The
OPTICAL SOCIETY
of AMERICA
VOLUME 31 NOVEMBER, 1941 NUMBER 11
The Brightness Scale of Exterior Scenes and the Computation of Correct Photographic Exposure*
LOYD A. JONES AND H. R. CONDIT
Kodak ResearchLaboratories,Eastman Kodak Company, Rochester,New York

Those historic papers are nice but to learn from a scientific standpoint I recommend Kodak's Sensitometry Workbook (free to download below):

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles...en_motion_education_sensitometry_workbook.pdf

To learn from an artist's perspective use this:

Thanks for the reply! Oh I know that shadows are II, III, IV. What I was suggesting was to find a dark shadow to meter from with my spotmeter to which the spotmeter would read that as Zone V. What I'm asking was a way to open up the shadows so instead of placing them as a III, or a IV but instead as a V without blowing out the highlights.

I don't know how you are visualizing the scene, do you see the shadow of the tree in zone V, and your highlights in zone VII? If you looking for zone V, then meter the shadow and leave it in zone V, that's your exposure, Meter the highlights for zone Vii and figure out your development time. The scene you are using as an example seems to be low contrast, your might have to expand to create more of a dynamic range. If it turns of the scene is high contrast, beyond + 2 o3 3 use a divided developer and correct with VC paper and filters.

Although I'm a big fan, this does seem to me where Beyond the Zone System comes into it's own.

I think there's generally a bit of confusion around the term "shadows". In terms of metering, it means tones under the mid tones as Doremus Scudder explained above; it doesn't necessarily refer to shadows things cast in direct light, then we would be in trouble on overcast days. You acknowledged this, but then went back to proposing placing shadows in zone V, so you went back to talking about what is conventionally called shadows (of objects). While metering the shadow of the tree in the Wessel scene above could make sense, one could and probably should also meter the darkest areas of the plants, as shadows in the ZS sense. Then the exposure strategy isn't anything exotic any more.
I think in that scene the shadow of the tree is so light not just because of generous exposure. Then the dark plants would also be brighter. It is filled in because the yard and house reflect tons of light, and probably it's a hazy day.

Jonnymm said:

Hi all!

Currently trying to get my head around a few questions with the Zone System and also spot metering.

I'm using a shot from Henry Wessel below as an example of tones I'm trying to achieve.

1.
In order to open up the shadow, say I take a reading of the shadows and my spotmeter is saying 1/125 @ f/8 for Zone V, to open up the shadows I'd therefore shoot 1/60 or 1/30 @ f/8 to place the shadows at Zone VI or VII? I'm trying to achieve tones between V and VIII

But due to brightening up the shadows, the fear is then of blowing out the sky too much, so is it a case then of cutting back development times (N-1) by 20% of normal development times? I know when it comes to printing I can flash the paper to get some tones in extreme highlights but trying to see how it's possible in development. But how many stops of dynamic range will there be?

2.
Also could I therefore set the light meter to a - 2 stop adjustment so when I take a shadow reading for Zone V it would automatically say Zone VII?

3.
And with the Zone System, when it comes to pushing black and white film from box speed of 400 and rating at 800, how does that therefore affect taking readings and placing on the zone system? And is that the same when shooting colour film 400 iso at 200?

Thanks!!!! View attachment 246816

Click to expand...

There are so many ways of explaining the Zone system and I'm a true believer that there's someone out there that can make a connection with the person trying to understand this system. Alan Brock put together this video/blog and I was able to understand it. I've watched and/or read enough to become so dizzy and confused until I stumbled onto Alan's explanation and examples.

http://www.alanbrockimages.com/blog/2015/5/30/how-to-meter-using-the-zone-system

If that doesn't help, keep looking because there's someone out there that may connect with your way of thinking and comprehension.

I agree, most issues here are with semantics. The OP is trying to be precise by referring to what the meter says as a zone V reading even if he is metering something for a different zone. I'm not sure if there is any other way to describe what he means, the straight meter output, according to a midtone index if the meter has such, before placing it in a zone...?
To me, 1. sounds essentially correct, although what you mean by "shadows" needs to be addressed, as I've written above.
2. The other way around, but I wouldn't. You'll forget you set your meter that odd way and screw up.
3. Just leave pushing out of it. If you want to think in terms of the zone system, shadow placement and expansion/contraction development make the ideas of pushing/pulling redundant.

ic-racer said:

Journal of The
OPTICAL SOCIETY
of AMERICA
VOLUME 31 NOVEMBER, 1941 NUMBER 11
The Brightness Scale of Exterior Scenes and the Computation of Correct Photographic Exposure*
LOYD A. JONES AND H. R. CONDIT
Kodak ResearchLaboratories,Eastman Kodak Company, Rochester,New York

Those historic papers are nice but to learn from a scientific standpoint I recommend Kodak's Sensitometry Workbook (free to download below):

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles...en_motion_education_sensitometry_workbook.pdf

To learn from an artist's perspective use this:

Click to expand...

Thank you.

Shadows means the darkest area that one wants the details to be seen on the print.

Jonnymm said:

Thanks for the reply! Oh I know that shadows are II, III, IV. What I was suggesting was to find a dark shadow to meter from with my spotmeter to which the spotmeter would read that as Zone V. What I'm asking was a way to open up the shadows so instead of placing them as a III, or a IV but instead as a V without blowing out the highlights.

Click to expand...

Two things:

We should probably be referring to "low values" or "dark values" instead of "shadow values" to be more accurate, since sometimes the things we want to be dark in the print aren't really shadows...

Nevertheless, the exposure of the negative needs to be based on an important low value to make sure the detail in that area is rendered as we want it and not underexposed. That said, the "low" value may well be a Zone V shadow, if that's what the scene requires. I place open shadows in snow scenes on Zone V all the time; I like middle grey for these shadows.

So, to answer your question: Wherever you place your important low value, Zone I or Zone V or wherever, you need to check and see where the important highlights fall, i.e., where they will end up with "normal" development/print contrast given your placement of the low value. Use your spotmeter to find a value for the important highlight and see how far from the low-value placement it is.

Let's say you place a low value in Zone V. Then you measure your important highlight and find it is four stops brighter than the low value. Well... V - VI - VII - VIII - IX ... your high value "falls" in Zone IX, which is an untextured very bright white in most Zone System regimes with normal development/printing. So, if you don't like that (say you want a Zone VIII textured white there instead), you need to make an adjustment. Options are: develop as usual and print with a lower contrast or develop less and print with a normal contrast. The choice is yours.

Highlights only get "blown out" if they get beyond what the contrast adjustments possible with the print medium are. Classic Zone System technique is to adjust negative development for a target contrast printing paper/setting. These days, many just develop "normally" and use the possibilities of variable contrast paper to deal with the different contrast ranges in the negative. I do a little of both.

Best,

Doremus