Zeiss Super Ikonta B 532/16 frame counter?

[John Wiegerink]

I prefer this older model to the III or IV. Now having the chance of 12th frame I will propose it to clients when they come with theirs.

Yes, a 12th frame is a big plus on this camera and as easy as it sounds I wonder why the Zeiss Ikon didn't offer a factory upgrade? Or at least upgrade a camera when it came in for repair. Machining another notch or a complete replacement brass wind stop gear and a new number 12 on the counter dial is all it would have taken. Of course they were gearing up for war production at the time this camera was produced and a 12th frame conversion was probably the last thing on the companies mind at that time. I guess we will never know the answer to that question, but it's fun speculating anyway.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I wonder why the Zeiss Ikon didn't offer a factory upgrade?

At the time this camera was introduced (1938 or so) not all 120 film was long enough to get 12 frames of 6x6 when starting with the 6x9 frame 1 mark -- which was done because not all 120 film had 6x6 frame markings before the War, either. Post-War production changes would have required changing the machinery that (precision) cut the notches in the wheel, which wasn't a good use of resources while still rebuilding from the War and Soviet confiscation of at least one of their production facilities as war reparations. This while work was already underway to produce the Super Ikonta III which, among other things, eliminated the precision prism fitting in the rangefinder extension on the front standard in favor of a rangefinder that worked the way almost every non-Zeiss rangefinder camera did.

 

[John Wiegerink]

At the time this camera was introduced (1938 or so) not all 120 film was long enough to get 12 frames of 6x6 when starting with the 6x9 frame 1 mark -- which was done because not all 120 film had 6x6 frame markings before the War, either. Post-War production changes would have required changing the machinery that (precision) cut the notches in the wheel, which wasn't a good use of resources while still rebuilding from the War and Soviet confiscation of at least one of their production facilities as war reparations. This while work was already underway to produce the Super Ikonta III which, among other things, eliminated the precision prism fitting in the rangefinder extension on the front standard in favor of a rangefinder that worked the way almost every non-Zeiss rangefinder camera did.

I heard something similar to that before. The machining the extra notch and stamping/engraving a number 12 on the counter dial doesn't sound like much of a retooling job to me. That leads me to believe that it is what you guess and that's that the company had other issues at the time. Plus, the fact that a new model was coming out and it just wasn't worth the effort, time and money. What a shame. But, on the bright side is the fact that if these great cameras had 12 exp we'd probably now have to pay twice as much on the used market. Mine is loaded with a roll of PanF just waiting for a little break in the Michigan winter weather here. When I test with this roll I'll do the wind past 11 and trip the shutter with my finger trick to get 12 exposures. Can't have everything I guess. At least for now anyway.

 

[BrianShaw]

Another version explanation is given here; deliberate engineering decision to correct prior defect:

Super Ikonta 532/16 - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

The economics of retrofitting and design changes is a fascinating engineering topic. Often small changes really aren’t a big deal yet the associated aspects, like updating all of the documentation and supply/parts train, diminish the economic viability.

Like today, it seems that manufacturers back then preferred selling a new camera than retrofitting old cameras if the user wanted the updated features and functionality.

 

[BrianShaw]

This might be an interesting read, also, as it discusses that tumultuous post-War era that Donald mentions. Probably not directly applicable to this specific discussion yet potentially interesting.

Camera Geekery: Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta II - Japan Camera Hunter

Camera Geekery: Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta II by John Kossik John Kossik has been a contributor to the site for a few years now, so it is always nice to hear

www.japancamerahunter.com

 

[John Wiegerink]

This might be an interesting read, also, as it discusses that tumultuous post-War era that Donald mentions. Probably not directly applicable to this specific discussion yet potentially interesting.

Camera Geekery: Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta II - Japan Camera Hunter

Camera Geekery: Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta II by John Kossik John Kossik has been a contributor to the site for a few years now, so it is always nice to hear

www.japancamerahunter.com

Very interesting reading.

 

[Donald Qualls]

manufacturers back then preferred selling a new camera than retrofitting old cameras if the user wanted the updated features and functionality.

Until the ability to add features by downloading updated firmware, this was probably actually cheaper (in most cases) for both the consumer and the manufacturer. My Weltini was retrofitted for flash sync at the cost of the cable release socket (I'd rather have the original verions, I don't use flash much, especially with such a tiny camera), but there was never a newer model offered with a Synchro-Compur (the camera was discontinued during WWII) and no other f/2 couple rangefinder 35 mm folder as small (smaller than a Retina, comparable to a 127 half frame folder).

 

[John Wiegerink]

Don,
That's kind of what I was getting at when I said "you can't have everything I guess". A lot of times you have to sacrifice something to get what you want. The big question is if it is worth it or not. It sounds like it wasn't worth the cost and effort at that time to do a retool to fix or add the 12th exp. I don't think they would have had to sacrifice anything on the Super Ikonta B, but they certainly would have had to recoup the cost by raising the price. As hard as times were back then in Germany that wouldn't have gone very well for them.

 

[BrianShaw]

… and in general, it’s often challenging to have more than the original design provided. Not everything is blessed with aftermarket mod parts. More often, bad design or improvements are handled more effectively by a new design, from both an engineering and business standpoints. Thank goodness for clever DIY mods that actually work like Donald mentioned.

 

[John Wiegerink]

… and in general, it’s often challenging to have more than the original design provided. Not everything is blessed with aftermarket mod parts. More often, bad design or improvements are handled more effectively by a new design, from both an engineering and business standpoints. Thank goodness for clever DIY mods that actually work like Donald mentioned.

Yes, necessity is the mother of invention. Don, wanted 12 exposures and was clever enough to figure out how to do it. Now we can all benefit. Thank you Donald!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Thank you Donald!

Very welcome! Nothing to gain by snickering behind my cloak, "I get 12 frames on mine, and nobody else does!" I went into it figuring I could buy a dead one to get a replacement wheel if I screwed it up.
They were cheap back then (20 years ago, more or less).

 

[John Wiegerink]

Well, I pulled the roll or PanF out of the fixer and all the frames are exactly where they should be, Now I'm a very happy camper!.

 

[Dan Daniel]

John, I may have missed it- was the solution simple cleaning? Was the counter installed incorrectly, cleared up by reassembly?

 

[John Wiegerink]

John, I may have missed it- was the solution simple cleaning? Was the counter installed incorrectly, cleared up by reassembly?

Dan,
I'll be very honest and say I'm not absolutely sure as to what I did to get that frame 11. I took the gears out, cleans and lubed them up. Took the large brass notched frame stop gear and checked it. The 11th notch was there but had a slight rough edge so I hand filed it off and polished the gear. I then looked at the pawl that locks the notch and it seemed to be slightly bent. I put the pawl on a flat surface and got it as straight as I could. Then I took all the wire springs and gave them a little tweak stretch to put a little more force on things like the pawl. After some head scratching on the sequence of the winder I assemble the parts and ran a test(bad roll) of film and viola, it was running smooth as silk and I now had an 11th frame. That's about all I can tell you Dan.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Sounds like it just needed a little attention after 70 plus years. If only it was so easy to get me to go to 11 again...

 

[Donald Qualls]

The 11th notch was there but had a slight rough edge so I hand filed it off and polished the gear. I then looked at the pawl that locks the notch and it seemed to be slightly bent. I put the pawl on a flat surface and got it as straight as I could. Then I took all the wire springs and gave them a little tweak stretch to put a little more force on things like the pawl.

Pretty sure that's what you did to fix it.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Pretty sure that's what you did to fix it.

Could be Don, but I would have thought that it would have skipped a notch other than the 11th every now and then. Oh well, I don't care how I fixed it, just that it's fixed.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I would have thought that it would have skipped a notch other than the 11th every now and then.

IMO, it was likely the combination of the slightly bent pawl and the burr on the #11 notch that caused the skip. Pawl wasn't bent enough not to work on a good notch, and there was just enough burr on #11 to cause the pawl to ride over. Fixing either one would likely have restored operation, but fixing both is better. And now you've seen what you need to see (including the shortening notch spacing as the roll progresses) to make the 12th frame modification if you choose to do so.

 

[John Wiegerink]

IMO, it was likely the combination of the slightly bent pawl and the burr on the #11 notch that caused the skip. Pawl wasn't bent enough not to work on a good notch, and there was just enough burr on #11 to cause the pawl to ride over. Fixing either one would likely have restored operation, but fixing both is better. And now you've seen what you need to see (including the shortening notch spacing as the roll progresses) to make the 12th frame modification if you choose to do so.

Yes, I think it might have worked just by cleaning up the burred 11th notch, but while you're under the hood you change the oil, filter and check all belts while you're at it. The way I see my spacings if I started by one of the direction arrows just before the number one I have enough trailer length to get 13 frames. I'm not going to press my luck and I'll stick with just 12 when I do the notch.

 

[Mr Flibble]

Good to hear you go it back it back into spec.
I remember reading that the choice of only shooting 11 frames on the Super Ikontas was decided upon, basically because of 120 spools had different core thickness between various manufacturers at the time and that would cause differences in frame spacing and the chance of the 12th frame ending up past the film on the roll.

The Ensign Commando also has an automated frame counter that has a reduced numbers of frames. (While also offering manual advance for the full number).


Concerning Hans Kerensky, he's mainly a Rollei man, though he does dabble a lot in the repairs of other cameras. I run into him at fairs every once in a while and over at the Dutch analogue photography forum.
He's even provided me with some repair parts for free a couple of times over the last decade. Nice guy!

 

[Donald Qualls]

13 frames

That's technically true with modern 120. I can shoot 13 with my Kodak Reflex II (which uses a length-counting roller and starts with the 6x6 track) by resetting the counter any time after frame 2. Problem is, where do I store the 13th frame? And when you're starting with the 6x9 track, you either risk running frame 13 off the end of the actual film, or (by starting early, thus making the roll thinner than it normally would be by a tiny amount) you get narrowed frame spacing with a turns-counting mechanism like the 532/16 uses.

 

[John Wiegerink]

That's technically true with modern 120. I can shoot 13 with my Kodak Reflex II (which uses a length-counting roller and starts with the 6x6 track) by resetting the counter any time after frame 2. Problem is, where do I store the 13th frame? And when you're starting with the 6x9 track, you either risk running frame 13 off the end of the actual film, or (by starting early, thus making the roll thinner than it normally would be by a tiny amount) you get narrowed frame spacing with a turns-counting mechanism like the 532/16 uses.

Don, that's why I'm not going to get to Dutch and try to squeeze out 13 frames. Just be satisfied with what you have was my father's favorite line when I was growing up and I hated it, but he was right 99% of the time. I was usually right the other 1%.
I think the camera will remain in my collection until I pass, but it won't overtake the Kodak Medalist as my favorite camera. Still, it takes great photos and is a lot easier to transport than the Medalist. I'll probably end up using it more than the Medalist.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I agree, the 532/16 isn't even half a Medalist, at least by weight.

For mine, I have no regrets getting 12 out of each roll, I just wouldn't try to get 13 for reasons given.