Zeiss Super Ikonta B 532/16 frame counter?

[John Wiegerink]

I got an email flyer message from Roberts camera in Indy and decided to see what they had. I ran across a very nice looking Super Ikonta B late version with the chrome shutter faceplate, synchro compur shutter and coated lens. The price was fair for the condition it was in so I pulled the trigger on it. Roberts rating was very conservative and the camera was great looking when it arrived. Their description also said fully functional. Well, I ran two test rolls through the camera today and it takes fabulous picture, but only 10 shots per roll. I load it as you should, by using the red window to get to frame one, then pushing down the frame counter dial and turn the dial counter to frame one where it auto stops. Trouble is when it is suppose to auto stop on frame 11 it goes right past. Even if you stop winding a 11 the double exposure prevention doesn't let you trip the shutter. I should say that these older 532/16's only took 11 exposures in the first place, buy mind is now a 10 shooter. I'm going to contact Roberts in the morning and see what they say, but I'd really like to fix this to get at least 11 shots per roll. Oh, and this example is so nice I don't want to send it back for a refund. Does anyone know of a service manual anywhere?

 

[pdccamerqs]

HI John,

I have one of these as well. When I first got it, I encountered similar problems as you. The auto frame counter mechanism on these beautiful machines is a mechanical gear linkage located under the top deck. I found just cleaning up these gears with a drops of lighter fluid solved the problem. If one of the cogs or gear teeth is worn or broken, which is unlikely, this won't work. Another thing to consider is that modern 120 films have a slightly different thickness than the film made in 30s and 40s. I put 2 revolutions of masking tape on the core of the film take-up spool and this pretty much makes up the difference and keeps frame spacing even over the entire roll. I hope this helps you, as these cameras are outstanding picture takers and they fit nicely in a large jacket pocket!

Enjoy,

Paul

 

[John Wiegerink]

HI John,

I have one of these as well. When I first got it, I encountered similar problems as you. The auto frame counter mechanism on these beautiful machines is a mechanical gear linkage located under the top deck. I found just cleaning up these gears with a drops of lighter fluid solved the problem. If one of the cogs or gear teeth is worn or broken, which is unlikely, this won't work. Another thing to consider is that modern 120 films have a slightly different thickness than the film made in 30s and 40s. I put 2 revolutions of masking tape on the core of the film take-up spool and this pretty much makes up the difference and keeps frame spacing even over the entire roll. I hope this helps you, as these cameras are outstanding picture takers and they fit nicely in a large jacket pocket!

Enjoy,

Paul

Paul,
My very first good camera, larger than 35mm, was a Super Ikonta B early production camera I bought from a camera show dealer in 1981. It had an uncoated lens that was every bit as good as the one on this camera. Eventually it too developed counter problems and shutter issues. I completely tore it down and repaired both, but that was many years ago and the old memory doesn't serve me as well as it used to back then. I'll see what Roberts camera has to say first before I attempt to fix this one. I pretty much remember the gear train setup for the counter, and also seem to remember having to assemble and disassemble several times to get the counter timing just right. That's why some type of repair manual would be very nice to have. I've also ran a couple more practice rolls through it and the problem is 100% consistent. Which tells me it's probably more than just a lube problem.

 

[Mr Flibble]

I've had similar experiences servicing the frame counter mechanism on 532/16 cameras. Assembly needs to be in a specific order and the gears, ratchets and cams need to mesh just right.
I had one case where a few stripped teeth on the sun and orbital gear prevented the frame lock from engaging, that might be the issue with yours as well.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Any chance that the frame counter is off? So you are actually starting at frame 2 in the underlying mechanism but the counter is showing 1? It's been a while but I think that the frame counter dial position/rotation is set by the top screw(s?) and is adjustable. Well, this could be completely off and the start point is hard, not adjustable, and the counter rotation is also hard.

I have to wonder what was in the water that the Zeiss engineers were drinking. Or maybe it's that German forest mushroom hunter thing finding some special ones. Consistently, whacky designs. I assume that all their engineers went on to work for BMW when they stopped making cameras.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Mr Fibble, that exactly what I'm thinking is going on, but won't know for sure until til it's apart.

Dan, I wondered that too, but can't wrap my head around the idea simply because if it locked on 2 it seems to me it should then lock on a blank area past 11. The only thing I really remember about my last repair years ago was gears, alignment and a lot of trial and more error until I finally got it.
Yes I've heard and read all those stories about the manufacture putting backs on that were made for starting film in 6X9 cameras and a bunch more odd sounding reasons for only 11 exposures instead of 12. I don't really believe any I have read or heard so far. Yours sounds about the best so far. One I read was that they made the mistake and didn't find it out until they had manufacture a ton of cameras and parts and it was too late to fix it. I don't buy that since this is obviously a well designed camera and the 11 exposure system was also designed right into it from the beginning. I believe there was some purpose for the 11 exposure design further down the line for the camera and future cameras to come maybe. I guess we'll probably never know unless some young German's grandfather, who worked in the factory, told them on his/her death bed why it was that way.

Oh, I should add that the counter wheel and wind mechanism run smooth as silk.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Well, I really don't remember the details of this mechanism. You might remove the counter dial itself and see what is under there. I seem to remember the counter dial sits on top of the central gear and is a simple indicator, not part of the active mechanism? It might show you something?

Might be worth seeing if Hans Kerensky has any info on this camera- https://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/sets// He often has just the little tip I need in his discussions of specific models.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Well, I really don't remember the details of this mechanism. You might remove the counter dial itself and see what is under there. I seem to remember the counter dial sits on top of the central gear and is a simple indicator, not part of the active mechanism? It might show you something?

Might be worth seeing if Hans Kerensky has any info on this camera- https://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/sets// He often has just the little tip I need in his discussions of specific models.

Thanks Dan, I'll do that later in the day. Off to the Doc's office now. Just getting over a case of that blasted RSV stuff I picked up at Christmas time. Still got a lingering ear ache that's bugging me. Certainly feeling much better than I was. Stay healthy out there!

 

[Donald Qualls]

I should say that these older 532/16's only took 11 exposures in the first place, buy mind is now a 10 shooter.

I have this model (an early post-War unit with uncoated lens). I've modified the frame counter on mine to give 12 frames (filed a notch in the brass stop wheel to give one more stop).

It's been almost twenty years since I worked on mine, but there are two possible reasons you're only getting 10 frames. One would be if the stop wheel is misaligned and you're starting on the 2nd notch (unlikely; that would also result in close/overlapping frames since the advance compensates for thickness build up on the spool); the other is if something is keeping the feeler from dropping into that last notch (or keeping it from catching in the notch).

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have this model (an early post-War unit with uncoated lens). I've modified the frame counter on mine to give 12 frames (filed a notch in the brass stop wheel to give one more stop).

It's been almost twenty years since I worked on mine, but there are two possible reasons you're only getting 10 frames. One would be if the stop wheel is misaligned and you're starting on the 2nd notch (unlikely; that would also result in close/overlapping frames since the advance compensates for thickness build up on the spool); the other is if something is keeping the feeler from dropping into that last notch (or keeping it from catching in the notch).

Don,
I'm leaning on the last possibility you suggested. I own several Super Ikonta A's and C's along with this one and they are all great cameras and very usable to this day. I still think the Super Ikonta B/BX were the best of the bunch. A little heavy, but built like a tank. When I get into this one I will modify mine for 12 exposure also. Does the double exposure prevention still operate the same as before the 12 frame conversion? I'm typing this in the doctors office so it might be a while before I reply.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Does the double exposure prevention still operate the same as before the 12 frame conversion?

Everything is the same except that there's a 12th (unmarked on the counter dial) frame stop.

If you decide to modify yours, I'd suggest making the notch intentionally "short" -- that is, too close to the frame 11 notch -- because while it's not a big deal to open the top cover again and file the notch a little wider (so the feeler catches later) it's quite difficult to add metal so it catches sooner. Mine leaves an extra wide gutter between frames 11 and 12. It ought to be possible to fill that last notch with solder and recut it, but the frame stays on the film so I'm not likely to mess with it further (and in any case, when I want a 6x6 folder these days I'm more likely to reach for my Mamiya 6 folder -- no auto frame stop on the model I have, but it's a lot lighter and the viewfinder window is better for glasses).

 

[John Wiegerink]

Everything is the same except that there's a 12th (unmarked on the counter dial) frame stop.

If you decide to modify yours, I'd suggest making the notch intentionally "short" -- that is, too close to the frame 11 notch -- because while it's not a big deal to open the top cover again and file the notch a little wider (so the feeler catches later) it's quite difficult to add metal so it catches sooner. Mine leaves an extra wide gutter between frames 11 and 12. It ought to be possible to fill that last notch with solder and recut it, but the frame stays on the film so I'm not likely to mess with it further (and in any case, when I want a 6x6 folder these days I'm more likely to reach for my Mamiya 6 folder -- no auto frame stop on the model I have, but it's a lot lighter and the viewfinder window is better for glasses).

You are right about the smallish viewfinder and heft, but I'll take it. Still a real fine camera and ones in the condition mine came in are getting extremely hard to find.
I'll follow your advice and advice from my carpenter father "measure twice.....cut one time". Still waiting to hear back from Roberts Camera.

 

[Sharktooth]

After developing the film is there enough space for the 11th shot? If so, then you can easily fire the 11th shot manually by bypassing the shutter release button on top.

The shutter is a conventional Compur design with a cocking lever and release lever. The release lever is activated by a complex linkage mechanism in the camera. The end of that mechanism is a "paddle" that pushes the release lever on the shutter. The paddle pivot is on the fold out bed, and is very easy to push with your finger. It can also be used for intentional double exposure on any frame. It's also useful for just testing the shutter.

Functionally, it's perfectly fine, and it doesn't involve any risk or expense.

 

[John Wiegerink]

After developing the film is there enough space for the 11th shot? If so, then you can easily fire the 11th shot manually by bypassing the shutter release button on top.

The shutter is a conventional Compur design with a cocking lever and release lever. The release lever is activated by a complex linkage mechanism in the camera. The end of that mechanism is a "paddle" that pushes the release lever on the shutter. The paddle pivot is on the fold out bed, and is very easy to push with your finger. It can also be used for intentional double exposure on any frame. It's also useful for just testing the shutter.

Functionally, it's perfectly fine, and it doesn't involve any risk or expense.

Yes, I know the routine for getting around the double exposure prevention and I have actually done that with this camera after it went past exp 11, but it is a little hassle trying to get your finger in the frame to trip the shutter and hold the camera still at the same time. On a tripod, no problem. I'm still waiting for Roberts to reply, before I start pulling the top cover off or even the counter dial itself.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Still patiently waiting for Roberts reply, but it looks like I most likely won't hear back from them now until after the weekend.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Well, I got a reply from Roberts Camera and they sent out a shipping label already for a return/refund. They did apologized for the faulty camera. I sent them an email back and said for as nice a condition that this camera is in I didn't really wish to send it back for a refund since I might not find another in this condition. I also said I would rather just get the counter repaired and ask if they had an onsite repairman or a repair person they use. I never heard back so since it's Sunday tomorrow, my day of tinker, I will be doing some internal investigation to see where the problem is. I'll post what I find late tomorrow.

 

[BrianShaw]

Good luck with that. My experience with Robert’s is good, with one exception. They offer “make offer” on eBay listings yet seem completely uninterested in any minimal negotiation. In fact, they seem to resent offers. Other than that they are a good and honest supplier. Can’t wait to hear your experience.

 

[Alex Varas]

I have dealt with the counter of this model a couple of times.
I always start mounting it back with the photos made by Hans Kerensky mentioned above.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have dealt with the counter of this model a couple of times.
I always start mounting it back with the photos made by Hans Kerensky mentioned above.

Alex, That's exactly what I plan to do. I never saw his site before, but I certainly have it bookmarked now. I'm going to start on the camera this evening.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Well, after a lot of head scratching and trial by error the Super Ikonta B (II) is up and running like a fine watch. I got my 11th frame back! Someone had been into this cameras wind system before. I don't know if that was the entire problem or not and I don't really care. I stripped all the gears out, which were in fine shape thank God and cleaned them all. I check all the frame stop notches and found a slight burr, but not where frame 11 was. Took the burr off and polished up the brass. I did notice a slight bend on the frame stop pawl and straighten that the best I could. Then I pretensioned all the springs attached to the pawl since they seem a little weaker than I thought they should be. One teeny-tiny spring the pushes on the barrel bearing that is in the wind knob section that acts as an anti-reverse had no tension on the barrel bearing at all so I stretched it slightly and now it works fine. All that was pretty easy, but the head scratching came into play when it came back to reassembling the wind system. It took me a while to figure out the whole sequence of film frame start location, lock rotation and release/advance. This is a pretty complicated system for sure. All said and done this was a relearning experience with a happy ending for change. I was going to do Donald's 12th frame conversion, but decided to wait and make sure everything stays running smoothly first before attempting to do that.
Back in 1979 or so I bought a Zeiss Super Ikonta B as my first real truly professional medium format camera. That camera took some beautiful photos until one day the film advance just kept winding and would never stop. I tore into that one too and fixed the problem. Still, after all that time I had completely forgotten how this wind system functioned. I do now!

 

[Alex Varas]

Congrats!!
I will try that 12th frame conversion from Donald next time I open next B. I will let you know.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Congrats!!
I will try that 12th frame conversion from Donald next time I open next B. I will let you know.

Do that Alex and keep us informed as to how it's done and if it works well. I am going to do the same and wait until I have to clean or adjust the next time, before I do the 12th frame thing. Oh, and yes, I'm a happy camper for sure. This is one very fine camera. Quirky, but fine!

 

[Alex Varas]

I prefer this older model to the III or IV. Now having the chance of 12th frame I will propose it to clients when they come with theirs.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I was going to do Donald's 12th frame conversion, but decided to wait and make sure everything stays running smoothly first before attempting to do that.

I'd call that a very reasonable decision. Make it work right before you change how it works.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'd call that a very reasonable decision. Make it work right before you change how it works.

Don,
Yes, I've learn my share of lessons of the years and one is to just put one foot in front of the other very carefully and slowly. One step at a time!