Zeiss Ikon ZI

swifty · Jan 16, 2010

Hi everyone,
To cut a long story short, I've narrowed my choice of 135 format cameras down to a select few and one of which is the Zeiss Ikon ZI since I've never used a rangefinder before.
I think the Leica M's are a little too expensive so whilst searching for the Zeiss Ikon ZI's, I came across a few new or mint ones for 500-700USD, whilst other seemingly similar models run into the thousands.
I was wondering why there would be such a large discrepancy and whether it is possible that the cheaper ones are fakes. It seem like they are been sold by reputable dealers on ebay with thousands of feedbacks.
The price seem very attractive and hence my skepticism or is that the going price these days.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure I'd go for a 35mm focal length and there are quite a few M-mount 35mm's available. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Dave

elekm · Jan 16, 2010

Currently, there are no fake Zeiss Ikon rangefinders, if you're referring to the new camera that is manufactured by Cosina.

I would expect used models to run from $800 to $1,200. Are you seeing the less expensive ones in a store or on eBay? As always, be cautious about buying anything that seems like too good of a deal.

The 35mm focal length is a good lens, because it's not too wide. Overall, very versatile. Many people want the extra speed and go for a f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, while others want a more compact lens and will buy an f/2.8. That's a decision that you need to make. In general, the faster a lens is, the larger it is.

By the way, it's the Zeiss Ikon, not Zeiss Ikon ZI, because ZI is short for Zeiss Ikon, so then you would have to say the Zeiss Ikon Zeiss Ikon.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 16, 2010

I think you might think screwmount leicas especially with summitar lens. Its a ultra good lens and it will make you very very happy. It makes surprises and teach its qualities to you , this makes Leica different.
I think if you have no idea to select zeiss to leica , leica to zeiss , you should walk a long way.
Dont hurry , buy old popular photography annals and look what you like. If you like zeiss , kodak , leitz , schneider , medium format , big format , than go from its path. I believe there is constant qualities every lens factory keep and differ from other . So old magazines do not lie.
And there is one thing , I think screwmount leicas have very small pupil for viewfinder , exactly opposite to ikon. I believe you found big slr viewfinders death and look for smaller one. Smaller pupil makes you to grasp the composition in a magic way. If you did not understand whats going on , buy 50 years old magazines to 70s.

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 16, 2010

And touch a Leica , try its buttery smooth winder , velvetly silent voice. Leica is a school which you can not get the diploma without study. I advise you to study Rembrandt , Vermeer , Da Vinci. When summitar suprises you , you will need a cultural background.

swifty · Jan 16, 2010

elekm said:
Currently, there are no fake Zeiss Ikon rangefinders, if you're referring to the new camera that is manufactured by Cosina.

I would expect used models to run from $800 to $1,200. Are you seeing the less expensive ones in a store or on eBay? As always, be cautious about buying anything that seems like too good of a deal.

The 35mm focal length is a good lens, because it's not too wide. Overall, very versatile. Many people want the extra speed and go for a f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, while others want a more compact lens and will buy an f/2.8. That's a decision that you need to make. In general, the faster a lens is, the larger it is.

By the way, it's the Zeiss Ikon, not Zeiss Ikon ZI, because ZI is short for Zeiss Ikon, so then you would have to say the Zeiss Ikon Zeiss Ikon.

Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
Actually I referred to it as Zeiss Ikon ZI cos I read an article that referred to it as such to distinguish it from all the other Ikons. But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

swifty · Jan 16, 2010

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I think you might think screwmount leicas especially with summitar lens. Its a ultra good lens and it will make you very very happy. It makes surprises and teach its qualities to you , this makes Leica different.
I think if you have no idea to select zeiss to leica , leica to zeiss , you should walk a long way.
Dont hurry , buy old popular photography annals and look what you like. If you like zeiss , kodak , leitz , schneider , medium format , big format , than go from its path. I believe there is constant qualities every lens factory keep and differ from other . So old magazines do not lie.
And there is one thing , I think screwmount leicas have very small pupil for viewfinder , exactly opposite to ikon. I believe you found big slr viewfinders death and look for smaller one. Smaller pupil makes you to grasp the composition in a magic way. If you did not understand whats going on , buy 50 years old magazines to 70s.

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

I actually started in digital and recently bought a MF but am finding it a little bulky although loving the results.
Still keeping the MF but I wanted something smaller so I'm going 135 format and tossing up between a Nikon film camera to go with my existing digital gear or the rangefinder experience.
Since I came across the seemingly cheap price of the ZI on ebay, thought I'd just get some advice on what the going rate should be.

Jeff L · Jan 16, 2010

Zeiss Ikons, Leicas, or Voigtlander Bessas. All great cameras capable of great quality images.

Resoman · Jan 16, 2010

Regarding the eBay camera -
"But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??"
The camera on eBay is the SW super wide version, without a viewfinder and rangefinder, so it's a lot less expensive a camera to build (and sell) than the standard model. It's designed for use with really wide lenses with an auxiliary viewfinder. $490 would be a great price for the standard model, that's for sure...

Gary,
East Snook, TX

dfoo · Jan 16, 2010

For a Ikon with a viewfinder expect to pay $800+. New they are $1600. I have both the Ikon and two Leicas. The Ikon is excellent. It has a very large and bright finder, a builtin meter and aperture priority mode. However, the shutter is louder, it has more vibration and is dependent on batteries. No batteries == dead camera. My Leicas on the other hand also have an excellent finder. My M3 is the king for 50mm, and my M4-p is excellent for 28-35mm. The shutter is dead quiet, and has little vibration meaning I can shoot handheld at much lower shutter speeds. They are both fully manual cameras, and don't depend on batteries. You can get decent M's for $600 if you search hard enough.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 16, 2010

swifty said:
Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
.... But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

It's so cheap because it's missing a rangefinder (not really necessary with very wide angle lenses)...
Plus you need to add 19% VAT if you live in the EU (that shop loves fine print).
The shop that's selling it *isn't* known for its good prices, BTW. You can definitely find better sources.

$750 is getting close to what a good used Leica M6 is going for these days (I can provide link to a *serious* shop in Germany which has some, if you want). While the ZI is undoubtedly a good camera, the M6 certainly has more "lasting value".

IMHO the 35mm focal length is an excellent choice.
The classic choice was the Leica Summicron type 4 (pre-Asph), for it's
all-round performance and bokeh.
The Zeiss ZMs are undoubtedly excellent (I'd choose whichever I could get for the best price).
No experience with the Cosina/Voigtländers in the 35mm FL...

swifty · Jan 16, 2010

Thanks everyone. I don't know how i could have missed that glaringly obvious omission.
Rol_lei_nut: M6 for $750 really? I was always under the impression that they were at least in the thousands but I'm in Australia so at least I won't have to pay VAT but shipping can be an issue. Can you let me know some good sources? I know KEH is often mentioned.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 16, 2010

Low price M6s at my two favorite leica sources:

http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=1&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2298&cHash=475a671a4b
http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=0&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2427&cHash=ae477e67ba
http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=0&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2381&cHash=5c40553c5f
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4938
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4507
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[begin_at]=20&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4904
http://www.meister-camera.com/hamburg/index.php?id=25&tx_commerce_pi1[showUid]=8575&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=21&cHash=e79b67f277
http://www.meister-camera.com/hamburg/index.php?id=25&tx_commerce_pi1[showUid]=6538&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=21&cHash=353ce575a3

I've used both shops often and find them very reliable.
Meister's ratings are a bit more conservative than Photohaus' (Meister's C-D is probably like Photohaus' C). Meister also has pages in English, though I'm pretty sure Photohaus can also communicate.

Enjoy!

You might have to re-construct the links....

Sanjay Sen · Jan 16, 2010

swifty said:
Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
Actually I referred to it as Zeiss Ikon ZI cos I read an article that referred to it as such to distinguish it from all the other Ikons. But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

I've never bought from this seller and I didn't see anything on the auction page to trigger any alarm bells either. They have addresses and phone numbers on the auction page, along with a 7 day return option (sans shipping). Even with shipping, I would say that is a great price for the SW body. Just for comparison, the same item is listed at USD 1,005 on the B&H website. So I am now curious why their price is so good...

elekm · Jan 16, 2010

If that's the SW model, then you don't want that. That's best for superwide angle lenses.

For branding purposes, Carl Zeiss has been labeling lenses according to their mount:

ZM = Zeiss lenses for the Leica M mount.
ZF = Zeiss lenses for the Nikon F mount.
ZE = Zeiss lenses for the Canon EOS mount.
ZK = Zeiss lenses for the Pentax K mount.
ZS = Zeiss lenses for the M42 screw mount.
ZV = Zeiss lenses for the Hasseblad V mount.

Some people have referred to the camera body as the Zeiss Ikon ZM, which is also incorrect.

In the long run, it doesn't matter. It might help to eliminate some confusion when you call a store and call it by the wrong name. Otherwise, no harm.

dfoo · Jan 16, 2010

Check rangefinderforum.com classifieds for lots of M's for sale.

benjiboy · Jan 17, 2010

In my experience when things look too good to be true, they usually are.

Vincenzo Maielli · Jan 17, 2010

In my opinion, if you can't afford a Leica M7, the Zeiss Ikon ZI is the better choice on the market.
Ciao.
Vincenzo

swifty · Jan 17, 2010

Thanks everyone for your responses.
Yea.. I've now realised the link example and the ebay items I was looking at were all SW models without rangefinders and hence not what I was looking for.
Now I know somewhat better what my budget needs to be and I may need to get an Nikon FM2n or F100 (since I own a few G Nikkors) for the time being until I have enough for an M6/7 or the proper Zeiss Ikon rangefinder.

cbphoto · Jan 17, 2010

I don't understand the ZI thing - they are absurdly expensive and are not Leicas. Great finders, though.

For 500-750, you should be able to find a decent M2 (my favorite M body ever), or an M4-2. The latter is like an M6, but with a less cluttered finder.

cbphoto · Jan 17, 2010

KEH has M2's for 546 and 569 right now.

Tim Gray · Jan 17, 2010

I bought my M6 off of ebay for around $900 a couple years ago. I had just missed another one for about the same price too.

The ZI is supposed to be a great camera. I probably would have gotten one instead of the M6 except for the fact that there weren't many on the used market when I got my M6. I've heard they are cheaper used in Japan, so the location of the seller might have something to do with the price.

For a 35mm, I'd look hard at the Zeiss 35/2 ZM. It's a great lens. That's what I decided on. I used it for about a year and couldn't have asked for more. I eventually got rid of it because the 35mm focal length wasn't for me, but the lens was great. Sharp across the frame, nice bokeh, very flare resistant and almost no distortion.

Xmas · Jan 17, 2010

I'd suggest you need to try the cameras before you buy.

If you don't need an exposure meter, a M2 or M4-2 will be cheaper, than a M6, for example you might not like the shutter sound of the ZM, and be insensitive to the larger view finder exit pupil advantages.

Apart from ZM lenses or Leica lenses there are CV (cosina voightlander) lenses that many people find acceptable, given they are somewhat cheaper.

Some people are annoyed by focusing tabs (e.g. on the ZM lenses) do not know why myself. I was startled by the large size and weight of the ZM 35mm Biogon f/2.

The Canon P and 7 series with original lenses from '60s or compatible (modern) CV lenses, are faster handling for some people, and cheaper than a M2 or M4-2.

The CV bodies are similar in price, some people dont like the appreciation they are 'plastic' cameras.

If you don't buy with a warranty, a repair bill can be large.

The choice is not simple especially if you want to take photos and are not (just) a camera fondler. A camera fondler would get an M2, several M2 an Canon P myself.

Noel

swifty · Jan 17, 2010

Well my lack of experience with guessing exposures makes me nervous about getting anything without a meter of some sort and I'm not too fond of the idea of carrying an external meter.
So I guess I'm limited to the more modern rangefinder variants.
If I'm lucky, I might find a value M6 but even that is on the high side of my current budget so I think it's probably better off if I just save and wait longer.
Of course it doesn't have to be Leica and hence my interest in the zeiss. From everything I've read it's very comparable to leica but cheaper.
I'd love to be able to play with each before deciding but I don't have the luxury of access to these cameras.
To clarify some information, basically i sold some of my nikon gear lately and i have around $1800 AUD. I have an existing medium format camera and loving shooting film but it's a little bulky and cumbersome for street shooting. I also need to get a scanner and I think an epson V700 might be it so taking these into account, by the time I purchase a v700 i'm probably down to just over $1k. Not enough i reckon so I probably need to save another grand b4 I can look at rangefinders again.
Only other options is to buy a nice lens, cheap rangefinder or something but I'm afraid I'd want to upgrade soon after purchase, something I prefer to avoid.

elekm · Jan 17, 2010

The Zeiss Ikon is a very nice camera. The exposure system is accurate. Great viewfinder. Build quality is excellent.

It's not as heavy as a Leica, but that's no surprise. It's not a Leica.

All of the Zeiss lenses are excellent, although there are many discussions regarding the f/1.5 C-Sonnar. I've had the camera since shortly after it was released. I have three M lenses: f/2.0 50mm Planar; f/2.8 25mm Biogon and a Rollei f/2.8 40mm Sonnar. These three lenses give me plenty of coverage. The only lens that I might want to add is the f/4.0 85mm Tele-Tessar.

I wouldn't be concerned about buying used. Just make sure that the previous owner didn't beat on the camera, as some users do.

Unless you're comfortable using a camera without a light meter, I wouldn't get a camera without a light meter. I use a handheld meter with many of my older cameras, but it's not a style for everyone.

I'll agree with others that if you want a camera for street shooting, a Leica LTM is a nice camera. I would opt for a Zeiss Ikon Contax IIa (1950s camera) with perhaps a 50mm Sonnar and maybe the 35mm Biogon. Downside: No meter with either the Leica LTM or the Contax IIa.

Always a lot to consider, right? If you were looking for inexpensive, the Cosina Voigtlander cameras are incredibly good values.

Xmas · Jan 18, 2010

Hi

The Canon VIIs do have built in meters, you can fit a MR meter to earlier
Ms than M6.

or even use a clip on CV meter.

or learn to use a separate meter.

A Canon P in collector condition is a lot cheaper than a M6.

Noel

Zeiss Ikon ZI

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