Zeiss Icon vs R3A/R2A

hmb · Feb 12, 2010

I am ready to get a rangefinder set up but trying to decide btwn these two cameras. Does anyone have strong opinions or maybe know something I have missed in regards to getting the Bessa and using the saved money for better glass?
I would like AE option and the ability to get a lens at least as wide as the 35mm. This makes me think I should opt for the R2a rather than the R3a although the 1:1 would be very nice as I shoot RF with both eyes open. Would I be sacrificing quality by using a wider than 40mm on the R3A or is it just a matter of getting used to?

Also, speed and high ISO films are important to me so is there any reason why I should instead consider more $$ for the Leica? I would assume I would just be shooting 3200 (limit on these two cameras) film and then pushing in development so wouldn't be worth the upgrade.

What I plan on is this first camera eventually becoming my backup/2nd lens camera and I of course do not want an inferior product but would think spending the money on lenses would be my best move.

I have used the Leica M6ttl and M7 and loved them but think after lots of research, my desire is to return to shooting rangefinders, not shooting Leica's.

I would prefer the Voigtlander so my real question is R2/R3?

I shoot live bands so want both 35mm or wider as well as a 75mm or 90mm.

Thank you so much!

Loris Medici · Feb 12, 2010

Both R3A and R4A; use the R3A for longer lenses and the R4A for wide lenses. You'll be still below Leica and Zeiss Ikon prices, no?

Snapper · Feb 12, 2010

I would go for the R2a - you get brightlines for 35mm lenses, but it depends on if you want to use a 40mm or not as the R3a has 40mm lines. You don't get a lot of choice (any) when it comes to 40mm lenses however.

I've used the R2a for the last 4 years at least and never found a problem with it. Spend less on the body and get yourself a nice Zeiss 35mm f/2 Biogon instead. People will tell you about the 'feel' of the Voigtlander being not as good as an Ikon or M7, but they do exactly the same thing. The Leica/Zeiss may be quieter, the rangefinder base might be a bit longer, but essentially the spec is the same (although doesn't the M7 only go up to 1/1000s shutter speed and the R2a/Ikon up to 1/2000s, so that may affect you if you are using iso3200 film. I sometimes find myself wanting that extra stop when trying to shoot at f/2.)

Everytime I find myself lusting after an M7, I take a big reality check, then go out and buy a new lens instead.

It depends on your budget, and whether you want to be seduced by the M7/Ikon. Or have more (and better quality) lenses.

Having never even touched an M7 or Ikon myself, people may have different views on splashing the extra cash on a body.

Lee L · Feb 12, 2010

Snapper said:
You don't get a lot of choice (any) when it comes to 40mm lenses however.

If you're willing to look at used as well:

Leica 40mm Summicron-C
M-Rokkor 40mm f:2
C/V Nokton 40mm f:1.4 single coated
C/V Nokton 40mm f:1.4 multi coated

All very fine lenses.

And regardless of which body you get, auxiliary finders are available for the lenses, so if 1:1 in the body finder is attractive to you, go for it if you find hot shoe finders acceptable for wider lenses. With the R2A, you only get 35mm frames wider than 40mm compared to the R3A. Anything wider than 35mm and you need an auxiliary finder with either body.

Lee

arealitystudios · Feb 12, 2010

For my part, I own an R3A and I am very happy with it. Like one of the previous posts above, I have dreamed about owning an M7 or MP but when I look at the price of the body alone I force myself to have a reality check and think about the lenses I can buy with that money instead.

The R3A has a much better build quality than I expected when I first purchased it. It miles in front of the quality you get from budget D-SLRs from the likes of Canon and Nikon these days. Its solid and doesnt feel cheap. I actually put the build quality on par with my old Minolta SRT-101 (though not nearly as heavy).

Its no Leica, but its good enough for me and it is an enjoyable experience to photograph with it.

nsouto · Feb 16, 2010

hmb said:
I shoot live bands so want both 35mm or wider as well as a 75mm or 90mm.

The Zeiss will do 28, 35, 50/75 and 85/90 (inside/outside of frame edge), all in one camera.
On the other hand, two second hand Bessas will probably cost as much or less than one new ZM, so there...

hmb · Feb 17, 2010

this has been very helpful. thank you all for confusing me further .

Loris, that seems to make the most sense. the R3 and the R4, especially so I won't be changing lenses in midst of shooting.

Now why would I have problems with focusing on the R3a close up and wide open with fast tele's? compared to which other combo?

My feeling, after looking into the Zeiss ikon is that I might as well purchase a Leica for the price.

thanks!

John Koehrer · Feb 18, 2010

There've been some very good M2/3's at Rff,

cmo · Feb 23, 2010

For a very simple reason I would choose the Zeiss Ikon: it has a much better rangefinder. In crazy light conditions that makes a difference. That would be my second choice, I still prefer my M6. You get used M6 cameras for reasonable prices, too...

Xmas · Feb 23, 2010

hmb said:
This makes me think I should opt for the R2a rather than the R3a although the 1:1 would be very nice as I shoot RF with both eyes open.

Three points

i) if you can shoot with both eyes open 1:1, then it will be easy for you to keep both eyes open when the finder is not 1:1.

It may need practice, there is a switch in your head that will allow you to use the left or the right eye predominatly even when both eyes are open.

You may only be able to detect where this switch is when you are looking through a 1:0.5 finder.

Try it it may need practice for you, it is easy for me I have much better acuity in one eye.

ii) some of the CV rangefinders are sensitive to eye position this annoys some people a lot but others ignore it, I'd check it out, yourself.

iii) If you plan on shooting on stages into Fresnels and profiles it is a serious test for any lens and lots (of lenses) will flare a lot, bleed out of high lights iris image etc. Some of the 'older' Leica ones are the worst offenders, and I've seen bad flare from modern Zeiss as well. I seem to select the flary ones...

Lastly my choice of body would not help you as I never use AE...

Noel

hmb · Feb 23, 2010

well, I decided to get the R3A to start with a 50 1.1. I ordered it from Adaroma, it arrived yesterday but the box was all torn up (the original box not the shipping box) and had no manual. I can not get the film advance lever to move or the shutter to work. The batteries are brand new and still nothing. This camera is DEAD. I LOVE the way this camera feels though, the size and it seems to fit my hands perfectly. I want it to work but now uncertain with a "broken" new camera and with my dealings with Adorama.

Chazzy · Feb 23, 2010

hmb said:
well, I decided to get the R3A to start with a 50 1.1. I ordered it from Adaroma, it arrived yesterday but the box was all torn up (the original box not the shipping box) and had no manual. I can not get the film advance lever to move or the shutter to work. The batteries are brand new and still nothing. This camera is DEAD. I LOVE the way this camera feels though, the size and it seems to fit my hands perfectly. I want it to work but now uncertain with a "broken" new camera and with my dealings with Adorama.

You might want to contact Helen Oster about this. At least I think that is her name. She works for Adorama and helps people with situations like this.

Xmas · Feb 23, 2010

Well open the back and try and rotate the sprocket shaft in either direction, but don't touch the shutter mechanism. It is like butterflys wing...

Then set the camera to wind and try the sprocket wheel rotation and back to rewind and try the sprocket mechanism.

Rotating the sprocket wheel can unjam some camera conditions, but if the shutter interlock has been damaged, it is return the camera for repair or replacement.

They may have sent you a return by mistake. But a damaged box and no user manual is difficult to explain.

Noel

hmb · Feb 23, 2010

Thanks Chazzy.
Noel, just tried what you suggested but nothing. And get no metering or indication of it being (on)

HelenOster · Feb 24, 2010

Message from Helen at Adorama Camera

hmb said:
well, I decided to get the R3A to start with a 50 1.1. I ordered it from Adaroma, it arrived yesterday but the box was all torn up (the original box not the shipping box) and had no manual.

Very concerned to read your post, and at this point can only apologize for the inconvenience and frustration you must be feeling right now.
Could I trouble you to contact me directly, with your order number, and I will give this my immediate attention.

I do look forward to hearing from you, and to being able to resolve this as quickly as possible.

hmb · Feb 24, 2010

Thank you Helen,
I was planning on a trip to UPS today to return it...but regretfully. Anyone know if the batteries are needed to advance the film? I have tried 2 different types of batteries just to be sure.
hate to say I am quite superstitious, so now can't help feeling as though this is a sign to go with my original intention of a Leica. :-/.

Xmas · Feb 24, 2010

hmb said:
Thanks Chazzy.
Noel, just tried what you suggested but nothing. And get no metering or indication of it being (on)

The meter may only come on when the shutter is armed if it is jammed that would probably inhibit.

Google for a WEB based used manual.

Noel

HelenOster · Feb 24, 2010

Message from Helen at Adorama

hmb said:
Thank you Helen,
I was planning on a trip to UPS today to return it...but regretfully. ....

If you send me your order number I can get a pre-paid returns label emailed to you

hmb · Feb 24, 2010

found an online manual, thanks Noel.
have a return label already Helen. thanks

Xmas · Feb 24, 2010

hmb said:
found an online manual, thanks Noel.
have a return label already Helen. thanks

If the shutter (including the interlocks for double and blank frame prevention) jams you are stuck part way through a sequence and the camera wont do anything at all, it needs to do lots of things to go from I've just taken a pic to I'm ready for the next pic.

You have been unlucky lots of people use the Cosina cameras (i.e. RD/1, ZM,... etc.) without any shutter problems.

The Leica film rangefinder shutter is inherently rather simple and has fewer things to go wrong thereby but they can fail as well. The fewer things to go wrong does make the Leica more reliable.

Noel

Vincenzo Maielli · Feb 28, 2010

The rangefinder of the Zeiss Ikon is better than the corrispondent item in Bessa R2/3/4.
Ciao.
Vincenzo

hmb · Feb 28, 2010

would hope so...it's about $1000 more isn't it?

Xmas · Mar 1, 2010

hmb said:
would hope so...it's about $1000 more isn't it?

Yes but when you buy a CV lens you are only paying 'extra' for the license to use the word Voightlander. Cosina are prime i.e. it is 'their' badge.

When you buy Zeiss then it says made in Japan (on all but a few things) and Zeiss management are adding their fee, local maintenance service, nice manuals and boxes. e.g. Cosinas robot milling machines are given different things to mill.

Cosina are good (efficient) at making things, licensing the name and selling prime has been more profitable for them, and their little lenses (most are little) are ok.

The only bad thing is that other obsolete equipment like Canon Ps are getting more expensive, because of all the modern glass multi coated LTM lenses. 20 years ago when they failed it was cheaper to get another today you have them fixed.

Noel

hmb · Mar 12, 2010

well, I have the Bessa and Nokton 50 1.1
Adorama took the non working camera back, no questions. Seems to be taking me a while to run a roll through this camera, but loving the feel of it in my hands. Do wish I could focus closer in to my subjects though.
Will be sure to post as I work with it.
Thank you so much for all the feedback.

HelenOster · Mar 14, 2010

Message from Helen at Adorama Camera

hmb said:
well, I have the Bessa and Nokton 50 1.1
Adorama took the non working camera back, no questions. Seems to be taking me a while to run a roll through this camera, but loving the feel of it in my hands. Do wish I could focus closer in to my subjects though.
Will be sure to post as I work with it.
Thank you so much for all the feedback.

Delighted that we came through for you - but do let me know if you need anything else.

Zeiss Icon vs R3A/R2A

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