Zeiss announce Nikon mount lenses, and more

roteague · Jan 18, 2006

Mongo said:
Even if they're manual focus it probably wouldn't take much to reverse-engineer the chip.

You don't have to go through all that trouble. Most third-party Nikon compatible lenses are already chipped. Obviously Nikon has made the specifications known. The chip is part of Nikon's matrix metering system - used to provide subject distance information to the camera.

sanderx1 · Jan 19, 2006

roteague said:
You don't have to go through all that trouble. Most third-party Nikon compatible lenses are already chipped. Obviously Nikon has made the specifications known. The chip is part of Nikon's matrix metering system - used to provide subject distance information to the camera.

No. Or rather, there are *two* different chips, one of which tells the camera stuff like maximum f stop and focal length and the other which tells it about the lens focus distance information. The function of the two are seprate (even if usually inside the same chip for "D" lens) and while all AF lenses have a chip with the first set of functionality, nowhere near all of them have the second, thus giving you the non-D AF lenses... Like say the older metal-barrel 50 mm/f1.8. I don't think any of the present Nikon cameras make use of the distance information for anything but flash metering. Most AF Nikon cameras however need the 'P' chip to some extent - at least for shutter priority and matrix metering (except d200...).

Its true that all modern 3rd party F mount lens have the chipped functionaility available, so one can hope so does Zeiss.

roteague · Jan 19, 2006

sanderx1 said:
I don't think any of the present Nikon cameras make use of the distance information for anything but flash metering.

The F5 uses the "D" chip (to provide distance information) for it's matrix metering system, as I believe the N80 also does. Those are the two main 35mm cameras I use.

sanderx1 · Jan 19, 2006

roteague said:
The F5 uses the "D" chip (to provide distance information) for it's matrix metering system, as I believe the N80 also does. Those are the two main 35mm cameras I use.

Can I suggest you open the user manual in the section on exposure metering and read what it writes there? It also contains a note on non-d lens and that you only get colour matrix metering and not 3d colour matrix metering ...

or of course, you are welcome not to believe me and not to bother to look the details up...

roteague · Jan 19, 2006

sanderx1 said:
Can I suggest you open the user manual in the section on exposure metering and read what it writes there? It also contains a note on non-d lens and that you only get colour matrix metering and not 3d colour matrix metering ...

I have.

"3D Color Matrix Metering This system is ideal for quick operation In any exposure mode. With D-type AF Nikkor lenses including AF-S or AF-I Nikkor, 3D Color Matrix Metering is automatically activated. 3D Color Matrix Metering uses various types of data: scene brightness, scene, contrast, focused subject's distance (Distance Information) and color distribution of the entire frame."

NOTE: If a non-D-type lens is used, Matrix Metering is performed. Although lens' Distance Information is not given, 1,005-pixel Matrix Sensor provides the correct exposure in most lighting situations. Please also note that Matrix Metering system can only be used with lenses having a built-in CPU (such as AF Nikkor and AI-P lenses)

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/NikonF5/NikonF5Manual/index4.htm

sanderx1 · Jan 19, 2006

So essentially we were arguing over a very minor semantic detail What I'm still mainly worried about is that the lens have any chip at all, so F80-s can meter with it. This is unfortunately not guranteed...

Robert Budding · Jan 19, 2006

Surely Zeiss will soon launch a line of AF lenses. Something similar to the 645 or N mount designs that allow you to shift seamlessly from AF to MF. There is a market for MF lenses, but there is a much larger market for AF.

roteague · Jan 19, 2006

sanderx1 said:
What I'm still mainly worried about is that the lens have any chip at all, so F80-s can meter with it. This is unfortunately not guranteed...

Yes, the N80/F80 camera is, IMO, a highly underrated camera. I've had one for 5 years and it has been all over the world with me; Jordan, England, Germany, New Zealand, Australia and around the US. I even managed to get it soaking wet about a year ago, it keeps on working. I have an F5 as well, and while I like handling the F5 better, the N80 seems to lock focus much easier. I'm going to buy another N80, just in case.

titrisol · Jan 19, 2006

I agree Robert, I bought one for work in 2000 and just replaced it last year with a D70
The N80 is a great camera. underrated, just like the F301/N2000

roteague · Jan 19, 2006

titrisol said:
I agree Robert, I bought one for work in 2000 and just replaced it last year with a D70

It has been my understanding that they are essentially the same camera body - except the good one uses film. Is that correct?

mawz · Jan 24, 2006

Not exactly, the D70 has a pentamirror viewfinder. It's more a cross between the F65 and F80. The D100 is essentially a Digital F80 (As are the Kodak DCS14, DCS/n and Fuji S2 Pro and S3 Pro)

johnnywalker · Jan 24, 2006

roteague said:
Yes, the N80/F80 camera is, IMO, a highly underrated camera. I've had one for 5 years and it has been all over the world with me; Jordan, England, Germany, New Zealand, Australia and around the US. I even managed to get it soaking wet about a year ago, it keeps on working. I have an F5 as well, and while I like handling the F5 better, the N80 seems to lock focus much easier. I'm going to buy another N80, just in case.

I've had mine for the same length of time, and used it from Iran to Indonesia and Vietnam, with nary a glitch.

sanderx1 · Jan 25, 2006

From the lens lens data page - http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B58B9/ContentsWWWIntern/F1BFC4A35A6B45A2C12570F9003F9B9B

ZF lenses are made according to the Nikon AI-S Standard. They can be used on all cameras with AI-connection. ZF lenses do not contain electronics. The direction of rotation of both focus ring and aperture ring are the same as on Nikon lenses. ZF lenses are focused manually only. The aperture ring has half stop click stops.

So no metering on F80 (and F75 & F65) at all, as these are indeed just AI-S not AI-P lenses.

Claire Senft · Jan 25, 2006

Different pokes for different folks. For what I do I like my gear to be manual focus but I like to photograph static subjects and use any flash manually.

If I wanted to change what I photograph I might quickly change my mind. I guess that however we photograph that we should each continue to poke in a way that seems to suit us best.

I am guessing that Cosina and Zeiss will come out with a manual focus body for Nikon lenses that will be interesting.

Mongo · Jan 25, 2006

I'm with you Claire...manual focus lenses are just fine for me and my FE-2. I keep reading posts on various forums by people who are convinced that Zeiss is the incarnation of evil for not providing electronics/autofocus/EOS mounts/whatever...but I have to believe that Zeiss has done market research and believes there is money to be made with these lenses.

In the interview section of their newsletter they stress the industrial applications of the lenses, and perhaps that is their true target market. There are a lot of industrial machines out there that use F-mount lenses for optical inspection. Having Zeiss-quality glass available for such purposes might sell a bunch of glass.

Me...I'm just hoping I can save up enough to buy the first wide angle they bring out. I've always loved Zeiss wide angle lenses.

Be well.
Dave

sanderx1 · Jan 25, 2006

Mongo said:
In the interview section of their newsletter they stress the industrial applications of the lenses, and perhaps that is their true target market. There are a lot of industrial machines out there that use F-mount lenses for optical inspection. Having Zeiss-quality glass available for such purposes might sell a bunch of glass.

Be well.
Dave

Hmm? I'm certainly not saying Zeiss is evil for not making the lens be AI-P - it is simply part of the technical spec of the lens really and affects on what camera models you can use the built-in meter. Hopefuly they will reconsider at some point because it will quite considerably extend the usefulness of the lens and certainly doesn't make them unsuitable for the other applications. If not - well, the lens are still usefull for many types of photography.

Claire Senft · Jan 26, 2006

I like Nikon cameras. I have a Contax rtsIII with 8 Zeiss and 1 schneider made for an R Leica. I am not considering a change.

pelerin · Jan 26, 2006

Claire Senft said:
Different pokes for different folks. For what I do I like my gear to be manual focus but I like to photograph static subjects and use any flash manually.

If I wanted to change what I photograph I might quickly change my mind. I guess that however we photograph that we should each continue to poke in a way that seems to suit us best.

I am guessing that Cosina and Zeiss will come out with a manual focus body for Nikon lenses that will be interesting.

I think that perhaps the fm10 is made by Cosina so this has already come to pass. I'm sure that such a collaboration (Cosina and Zeiss) could bring forth a beautiful camera, it is just very difficult to imagine that they could make a "pro" quality manual focus camera that would be competitive against the resale market. The "ZI" (1.3-1.4K on cameraquest) seems a relative bargain vis-a-vis M6 + M7 prices. I wonder what combination of build quality and feature set would constitute a saleable new manual focus SLR camera even at the (much lower) price point of the FM3a. I would certainly applaud such an effort on their part.
Celac.

Mongo · Jan 26, 2006

sanderx1 said:
Hmm? I'm certainly not saying Zeiss is evil for not making the lens be AI-P - it is simply part of the technical spec of the lens really and affects on what camera models you can use the built-in meter. Hopefuly they will reconsider at some point because it will quite considerably extend the usefulness of the lens and certainly doesn't make them unsuitable for the other applications. If not - well, the lens are still usefull for many types of photography.

In my previous message I said that I read those statements on other forums...I can't imagine finding such rhetoric on APUG. If you want to see absolute childishness related to the Zeiss lenses, go check out any forum that caters to the "latest-and-greatest" crowd. Seriously, there are people out there who are taking Zeiss' lens announcements as a personal insult because Zeiss didn't cater to their every whim.

I'm sure that making the lenses Ai-S rather than Ai-P was a carefully considered decision by Zeiss. I doubt that they wanted to pay Nikon for the Ai-P technology given their past business relationship, and reverse-engineering the lens interface would leave them open to the kind of problems that Sigma has when Nikon or Canon bring out a new camera. I doubt that Zeiss wants to be seen in that same light. Ai-S isn't as useful as a more modern specification for the lenses, but I'm sure Zeiss considered this limitation carefully in their market research.

Be well.
Dave

pelerin · Jan 27, 2006

The emphasis added is mine and not the authors

Mongo said:
In my previous message I said that I read those statements on other forums...I can't imagine finding such rhetoric on APUG. If you want to see absolute childishness related to the Zeiss lenses, go check out any forum that caters to the "latest-and-greatest" crowd. Seriously, there are people out there who are taking Zeiss' lens announcements as a personal insult because Zeiss didn't cater to their every whim.

I'm sure that making the lenses Ai-S rather than Ai-P was a carefully considered decision by Zeiss. I doubt that they wanted to pay Nikon for the Ai-P technology given their past business relationship, and reverse-engineering the lens interface would leave them open to the kind of problems that Sigma has when Nikon or Canon bring out a new camera. I doubt that Zeiss wants to be seen in that same light. Ai-S isn't as useful as a more modern specification for the lenses, but I'm sure Zeiss considered this limitation carefully in their market research.

Be well.
Dave

I think you are right about market research. Zeiss probably considered the market and immediately saw two potential buyers for this lens: hardcore manual focus, prime lens only types and (nooooo... don't shoot) folks using digital capture solutions (e.g., sinar and horseman) that utilize f mount lenses. In fact such a camera is included in the promo photos on the Zeiss site. Given the cost involved in one of these rigs this is exactly the customer segment that might not quibble over the cost difference between Zeiss and Nikon glass.

Ai-S isn't as useful as a more modern specification

Why is this so? How does enabling polymorphic triexpanding whatsis modality on certain SLR's make the lens any better or more useful? It seems to me that not chipping the lens has no effect on the characteristics that make the lens perform well, only on making it compatible with part of the feature set of a range of now discontinued products. I don't mean to imply that these cameras don't work well or produce good results. In fact the last remaining mechanical "Nikon", the FM10, definitely seems a backward step in build quality. However, that does not make AF SLR owners a likely prospect for the sale of a manual focus prime lens. I welcome being proven wrong in this case (I am a confirmed anti-zoom luddite). Let's see a show of hands... how many of N80 owners here open up their camera bags and rummage around through a battery of manual focus primes to find the right focal length?
Celac.

Mongo · Jan 27, 2006

Had Zeiss chipped the lenses, they would have been able to communicate with some Nikon bodies. This allowed certain bodies to meter with the lenses (since they had no actual physical link to the lenses, and therefore couldn't determine the maximum aperture or focal length of the lenses). The N80 is, I believe, a camera that works this way.

Some bodies (F6 and D200 come to mind) allow the user to enter data about the lens (largest aperture and focal length) into an on-board list, so that the user can tell the camera which lens is mounted. Once that data's been entered, the camera can display the aperture set on the lens in the viewfinder. (I don't know if the electronic rangefinder/focus confirmation light requires the lens data to be entered, but I believe it does.)

Regardless, a significant number of the current Nikon bodies work well with Ai-S lenses. Both of the film bodies that will remain (F6 and FM10) do, as do the D200, D2X, and D2Hs. Only the low-end digital bodies won't meter with the manual lenses.

I'm an old-school, prime lens and manual focus guy, so the Zeiss lenses aren't limited for me. I like the idea of the Zeiss lenses, although the cost will likely be more than I'm willing to pay for now.

As to chipping the lenses...I can understand why some people would want that, just as I can understand why some would have preferred that they come in Canon EOS mount. People around here are expressing their desire that the lenses could have been more useful to them...certainly understandable. But on some other forums I've seen people who have gone far beyond expressing their disappointment...people who are actually furious that Zeiss didn't give them what they wanted. As I said earlier, I'm sure Zeiss has their reasons for their decision, and I hope that it works out for them. My reasons, I admit freely, are completely selfish.

Be well.
Dave

mawz · Jan 27, 2006

The interesting things is that they would have had to be chipped to work in EOS mount. As it is, they'll work fine on EOS bodies with adaptors (I currently have a Sigma 24mm f2.8 in F mount sitting on my EOS 3, I also have the M42 adaptor) and that's how I intend on using them. I'm currently planning to buy the 50/1.4 and possibly the 85 and a wide, probably in a mix of M42 and F mount to fill gaps in my collection.

pelerin · Jan 28, 2006

Mongo said:
<SNIP>

Regardless, a significant number of the current Nikon bodies work well with Ai-S lenses. Both of the film bodies that will remain (F6 and FM10) do, as do the D200, D2X, and D2Hs. Only the low-end digital bodies won't meter with the manual lenses.

...and the low end film SLRs on which they are based. I obviously do not have access to Nikon's sales data but I would be willing to bet all my beer money that the sale of AF prime lenses to the owners of these cameras is close to zilch. Even if they provided full meter coupling the sales projections for new manual focus lenses would have to be small fraction of that already small market.

Mongo said:
I'm an old-school, prime lens and manual focus guy, so the Zeiss lenses aren't limited for me. I like the idea of the Zeiss lenses, although the cost will likely be more than I'm willing to pay for now.

Me too and... me too. I own many nice Nikon lenses. It seems to me a greater likelihood that I end up with one of the new ZI lenses but, if what they offer in the 20-35mm range is a significant upgrade over the lenses I already own I could probably justify replacing some of the higher mileage items. I can't imagine replacing the 85 I already own but a fast 100-105mm would be very tempting.

Mongo said:
As to chipping the lenses...I can understand why some people would want that, just as I can understand why some would have preferred that they come in Canon EOS mount. People around here are expressing their desire that the lenses could have been more useful to them...certainly understandable. But on some other forums I've seen people who have gone far beyond expressing their disappointment...people who are actually furious that Zeiss didn't give them what they wanted. As I said earlier, I'm sure Zeiss has their reasons for their decision, and I hope that it works out for them. My reasons, I admit freely, are completely selfish.

Be well.
Dave

I think two things are in play here: I believe that the patent on the f mount ran out (similar to the m mount) which makes it an attractive from a cost standpoint and secondly, while some may gripe loudly across the net, that doesn't mean that they would actually line up and pay to put manual focus prime lenses on their auto-gizmos. Anyway, the price of excellent Nikon bodies is so cheap in the secondhand market that anyone who can afford this glass can certainly afford a manual focus camera as an accessory for their manual focus lens. I'm sorry if my post above sounded combative and I meant no question as to the validity of your reasoning.
Celac.

As a postscript... it seems pretty cool to me that both the F & M mounts have not only seen continuous service longer than anything else in their segments but are being engineered into new products half a century after their intitial design.

Zeiss announce Nikon mount lenses, and more

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