Zeiss and Leitz after WWII

georg16nik · Aug 18, 2011

Monito, Japan was under US rule, right after WWll.
I still stay behind the explanation that I wrote

After the war, Japan was placed under international control of the American-led Allied powers in the Asia-Pacific region through General Douglas MacArthur as Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers.

They surely got LOTS of stuff from Germany, brought over by the US.
So, yes, the 1st japanese rangefinders are based on the pre-war german ones.
The original poster was interested in Jupier 3 and Jupiter 12 and I have shared my experience with Jupiter 12 as You can read in the other thread.
I think he ended up with Jupiter 12 at the end.
Leitz lenses were briefed, yes.

Anyway, same story over and over - "...on a site where 80% of members would be using Japanese cameras.." - "Leica M7 a la carte arrived yesterday!" (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
All looks natural.

BrianL · Aug 18, 2011

I'm getting confused with the discussions and replies on this thread. Starting to get a bit hot under the collar if I am reading the postings correctly. Leica vs Zeiss vs Canon vs Nikon, etc. is a losing discussion as each has its adherents who are total in their obsession for various reasons and others who have a preference based on where they simply put their money at some point in time and live with the decision.

georg16nik · Aug 18, 2011

Brian, not really. Money has never been implied as an object of the conversation at least that was not my intention.
Its pretty much, about the amount of skills/effort that certain companies put, in order to be what they are.

Xmas · Aug 18, 2011

georg16nik said:
They surely got LOTS of stuff from Germany, brought over by the US.
So, yes, the 1st japanese rangefinders are based on the pre-war german ones.

The USA requested the Ge patents as a post war reparation. Patents are published as part of the patent process, so the US would not (need to) have given the Ja anything other than free use of their patents.
Post WWII Zeiss Dresden did not have (m)any engieering drawings of the Contax II left, so had to reverse engineer a set to allow manufacture of the producion line equipment for the Kiev.
Other then the free use of patents which the Ja had I dont thing they were given anything.
There were exceptions the Zeiss hard coating process was a classified Ge patent and the Ja might have been given a copy during the war, (via blockade runner) or by the USA post war. Leitz did not use the Zeiss coating process for a long time post war, but Ja and FSU used it immediately post war.
Noel

georg16nik · Aug 18, 2011

Noel, There are Kiev bodies with Contax parts.
Most of the early Kiev lenses were with the Zeiss optical part, stamps etc etc as well. Most of the early Jupiter 3 used optical elements from the Zeiss factory as well...
Thats why for the exact Leica standard, most M39 russian lenses need to be shimmed in order to have adequate close focus.
Do You have any idea how many Kiev,Fed,Zorki from the war period still exist in east Europe, where I spent my childhood?

georg16nik · Aug 18, 2011

One more thing, the early Kiev's still hold higher cost/demand among collectors than Contaxes from that period, for the above reason (and not only).

georg16nik · Aug 18, 2011

For anyone interested about reading some info online..

The true nature of the Kiev was pointed out in a very expressive way by a seller of Russian cameras in Sweden, right after the fall of the Soviet Union: “This is not a Soviet camera - it is a German camera, made in the Soviet Union”

http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm

Xmas · Aug 19, 2011

Hi

I use Kievs (and Contax II) for static photography, they are so easy to repair.
In the UK Contax II can be as cheap as early (e.g. pre '54) Kievs, same condition donno why. Late Kievs are pretty cheap though, if you just want to take photos.

I suspect the Ge ran the rebuilt production line eqipment in Dresden before it was moved to Kiev.

Noel

georg16nik · Aug 19, 2011

Yes, the Kiev and Contax form the early period are classics and excellent cameras. I have a dozen friends who are very attached to them.. Interestingly, one of them worked as an accountant for Leitz in Germany and then Canada - he was very obsessed with Kiev around that time (think mid 90's or so).
The late Kievs are indeed still going for symbolic prices, so far it is probably one of the longest build camera design, mostly unchanged since the 30's well into the very late 80's.
Its being said that around 1946 the Contax production was restarted in Jena by germans and russians who built some cameras there as Contax or Kiev and then moved to Ukraine.
Somehow, at least to me, the Kiev after the 50's is like the Fed, they vary from sample to sample.
The early Kiev or Fed (pre war) are mostly, very consistent and extremely well made cameras.

lens_hacker · Aug 19, 2011

It has been a while since I logged into APUG.

Has the whole place gone to hell like this?

No moderation whatsoever?

The pre-war zeiss lenses do much better on DIGITAL cameras than they do with film cameras.

I'd rather see that point discussed on this forum than what I have read in this thread.

So long, thanks for all the fish.

georg16nik · Aug 20, 2011

Sieg Heil! Herrn Sweeney,

The pre-war zeiss lenses do much better on DIGITAL cameras than they do with film cameras.

The beauty of the finest film camera systems is that there are a very few photographers that have developed the skills and methodology needed to exploit any advantage that they actually offer.

Xmas · Aug 20, 2011

georg16nik said:
Sieg Heil! Herrn Sweeney,

Trolls feed on attention...
I'd be surprised if they were not still doing manufacturing drawings and piece parts in '46, the USAAF and RAF are supposed to have destroyed the Zeiss Dresden fire safe, with master documents and all production tools late in WWII?
Zeiss made war materials...
The Fed 1b I use as a shooter is a '36 model.

Noel

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 20, 2011

Please keep it to the company histories and how they relate to rangefinder photography. We've already split this discussion off to avoid hijacking another discussion. If it gets back to name calling and national stereotypes, we'll just delete the whole thread.

georg16nik · Aug 20, 2011

Noel, back then Zeiss had some intel and saved some of the optical department, there were also drawings saved on 35mm negatives as far as I know.
Around and after the cold war times, I think both Zeiss and Leitz entered legal patent disputes with everyone using their lens mounts, viewfinder, viewfinder magnification, built in rangefinder/telemeter, photoflash synchronizer etc etc.
As far as I know, everything patented after 1945 was not included in the patents and blueprints, taken by the U.S. and the UK.

Diapositivo · Aug 20, 2011

Xmas said:
I'd be surprised if they were not still doing manufacturing drawings and piece parts in '46, the USAAF and RAF are supposed to have destroyed the Zeiss Dresden fire safe, with master documents and all production tools late in WWII?

According to the document linked in message #82, the Allied bombings did not entirely destroy the Dresden factory. What remained of the production lines was transported to the Soviet Union.

Parts, some cameras, and even new production facilities were rebuilt by the Germans in the Jena factory. Missing the original measures they basically, if I get it right, "copied" (reverse engineered) their own cameras. They built three new production facilities which were sent to the SU.

So the Germans were actually building Contax cameras in 1946, some of them already branded "Kiev" (or Volga for some earlier copies).

Xmas · Aug 20, 2011

Diapositivo said:
According to the document linked in message #82, the Allied bombings did not entirely destroy the Dresden factory. What remained of the production lines was transported to the Soviet Union.

Parts, some cameras, and even new production facilities were rebuilt by the Germans in the Jena factory. Missing the original measures they basically, if I get it right, "copied" (reverse engineered) their own cameras. They built three new production facilities which were sent to the SU.

So the Germans were actually building Contax cameras in 1946, some of them already branded "Kiev" (or Volga for some earlier copies).

Maybe but the production numbers manufactured in '47 that I have seen were very small, which lends me to favor, a complete reverse engineer...

And some if the information about bomb damage more extreme.
e.g.

http://www.zeisshistorica.org/nerwin.html

Goodness knows what the truth is.

Noel

Diapositivo · Aug 20, 2011

Yes this second text is not clear.

It says that the plant in Dresden was 80% destroyed: the building, or the machinery? (The machinery might have been removed as a precaution against bombings, maybe the Germans either knew, or inferred from aerial activity, that a bombing was going to come).

It later says: "He took vital material via by American military trucks to replace the full plant taken as war reparations by the Russian military". Not very clear but it does state that the Russian did get a "full plant" as war reparation. Not clear whether this was from the Berlin plant or the Dresden plant, but from the precedent and the subsequent periods one might infer the author means the Russian took the Berlin machinery. They probably took all they could take, from Berlin and what could be salvaged from Dresden.

benjiboy · Aug 22, 2011

The Russians took the plant and machinery from Zeiss Jena to Russia but failed to take an important component, the glass., the workers and their family s were given a few hours to pack and were given the option of going or been left there dead.

Xmas · Aug 22, 2011

benjiboy said:
The Russians took the plant and machinery from Zeiss Jena to Russia but failed to take an important component, the glass., the workers and their family s were given a few hours to pack and were given the option of going or been left there dead.

The alternate story is that the Zeiss camera works tools were in the basement wth the fire safe and scrap have decended to basement when the floors collapsed, the fire safe was not sufficient to protect the design document from the fire...

They had to redraw the engineering drawngs for each piece part and orgainse three production lines, prototype one of the lines in Dresdern and train the Ukrainian workers in Dresden and Kiev...

The German workers then had to find other cameras to make, not competative with the Kiec (Contax II).

It is normal for a camera company to buy in glass from a glass supplier.

Noel

benjiboy · Sep 12, 2011

Here's the correct story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Zeiss_AG

Monito · Sep 12, 2011

Here are four citations referenced by benjiboy with respect to the topic at hand:

http://www.contaxcameras.co.uk/history.asp
http://www.zeiss.com/C125716F004E0776/0/F56B48BBB022F101C1257175006782D2/$File/Innovation_11_35.pdf
http://ebookee.org/Jewish-Forced-La...-Needs-and-Racial-Aims-1938-1944_1120580.html
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Zeiss and Leitz after WWII

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