Zeiss and Leitz after WWII

Xmas · Aug 15, 2011

Hi

The Axis nations surrendered unconditionally to end WWII, {which they also seem to have started}. There were then reparations, e.g. the USA got e.g. Axis patents as reparations, they were then at liberaty to let Japanese to use them freely, rather then asking for monies for their use.

They also introduced Deming's methods (developed during WWII) to the Japanese industries.

The Soviets exploded the first 'Hydrogen' bomb, earlier USA H tests were not deployable. The had the 1st satellite and 1st man in orbit. Earlier they had to contain the blitzkrieg the hard way with total mobilisation, and scorched earth.

They were only able to 'blitz' the panzer army when the USAAF damaged the German refernies and synthetic oil plants, this also aided the Normandy brdgeheads as well.

The soviets had been making successful Leica II copies from 1933 or so, (the Fed) they might have ignored some Leitz & Zeiss patents. Some people still use NKVD Feds.

Leitz revamped their design post WWII the M3 (&M2) to get some patent protection, Zeiss's IIa (and IIIa) did not sell well by comparison. Leitz had not been torn in two... Neither Zeiss nor Leitz were able to sell SLRs in volume. Thei last was not because the Japanese has free access to the German SLR patents - there were some- merely the Germans could not compete, they could not spell Deming - is a simplistic view point.

The Japanese built & marketed better & cheaper cameras.

Noel

benjiboy · Aug 15, 2011

"The Japanese built & marketed better & cheaper cameras"., That's true but mainly after WW11 when the American Government invested billions of dollars in rebuilding Japanese industry, ensuring they had the most up to date plant and tools, and teaching them American mass production techniques that the West later had to compete with.

Xmas · Aug 15, 2011

benjiboy said:
.. but mainly after WW11 when the American Government invested billions of dollars in rebuilding Japanese industry.

Every one was 'offered' money...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Repayment

some people were expected to refuse it, some people did not understand that their factories were from Walt Disneys Snow white and the 7 dwarfs...

Noel

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 15, 2011

Japan built the biggest aircraft carriers of all history ever seen. Did they do it with German scientists or american money ? Come on Benji , We know England is USs small dog , You dont need to tell these foolish
stories to us , nobody is fool here.

georg16nik · Aug 15, 2011

@ Noel - good that You put offered in quotes. the Marshall Plan was a demon with many faces, depending on the angle You look at it
@ Ben - Yes, especially around the Korean War, Japan came to be seen as an important ally of the US government. History have always had a decent sense of humor, so the cards are being shuffled again.
@ Umut - I understand what You mean, there is no doubt that our photo buddies from UK and the west part of the globe are trying to be politically and poetically correct.

Monito · Aug 15, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Come on Benji , We know England is USs small dog , You dont need to tell these foolish stories to us , nobody is fool here.

I don't think we need attempted insults or chauvinism or trash talking like that here. Please.

Xmas · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
@ Noel - good that You put offered in quotes. the Marshall Plan was a demon with many faces, depending on the angle You look at it

Way of topic, the point for Leitz and Zeiss was Ge and Ja both got thsir slice of the $ cake, both countaries expanded, the Ge patents were US property.
If others did not like the terms and conditions, they could look the gift horse in the mouth, complaining afterwards is cavil.
If Ge could not make competative cameras, they stopped...

Noel

benjiboy · Aug 16, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Japan built the biggest aircraft carriers of all history ever seen. Did they do it with German scientists or american money ? Come on Benji , We know England is USs small dog , You dont need to tell these foolish
stories to us , nobody is fool here.

What "foolish stories" are you referring to ? and how dare you insult my country , we are the United States Allies, England is not the "U.Ss small dog", with the help of troops from it's commonwealth Britain, a small island, fought the might of Nazi Germany alone for two years while Turkey covertly supported them in many ways, and had also been the allies of Germany in WW1

I think you are a little hard of understanding, Japan did build the the Worlds biggest aircraft carrier and battle ship but building warships was a mature technology that already existed what was being discussed was finance and patents for innovative technologies, mass production expertise and practices for manufacturing consumer goods to rebuild the devastated Japanese economy after WW11, not capital ships.

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Xmas said:
...Ge and Ja both got thsir slice of the $ cake, both countaries expanded, the Ge patents were US property.
Noel

Yes and Japan had access to Germany's patents, so Germany had to advance (in order to compete) with pretty much the same (if not less) budget as Japan and they did it, quite well. Despite so many years of copying ideas from Germany, Japan's optical products are still way behind in the game.
Leitz, Zeiss and why not Swarovski are doing pretty good, probably because they are more thinkers than spenders.

Monito · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
Yes and Japan had access to Germany's patents, so Germany had to advance (in order to compete) with pretty much the same (if not less) budget as Japan and they did it, quite well. Despite so many years of copying ideas from Germany, Japan's optical products are still way behind in the game. Leitz, Zeiss and why not Swarovski are doing pretty good, probably because they are more thinkers than spenders.

What a load of nonsense. They all spend money and they all think.

Japanese camera manufacturers are innovators and Leitz and Zeiss are constantly catching up. Leitz was late to fast lenses, not able to compete with Nikon in the 1950s until about 1961. Leitz was late to auto-exposure, late to digital. It took until 2010 for Leitz to make an autofocus SLR (the S2). These days it is Leitz who are copying, not the other way.

L&Z are content to play catchup because they emphasize top quality, and in some areas they achieve it. But not all. For example, Canon long telephoto lenses tend to be the best in the world. Nikon and Canon make many kinds of cameras and lenses that Leica and Zeiss can't compete with and don't try to. Likewise, there are some Leica and Zeiss products that N&C don't try to compete with either.

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Monito said:
...For example, Canon long telephoto lenses tend to be the best in the world...

Ever heard about Leica Apo-Telyt 1:5,6/800mm?
Are You sure it performs worse than Canon, Nikons or any of the Japanese toys?
Let me help You with orientation in finding it
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-R-1-5-6-800-mm-Apo-Telyt-R-ROM-11842-118-/350481276912
US $14,499.00 You might suggest its expensive because its not good?...

Xmas · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
Yes and Japan had access to Germany's patents,

They were not germany's patents after the US assmed ownership as a war reparation. suggest you need to add 'former' to indicate the change of title.

georg16nik said:
Japan's optical products are still way behind in the game.

There is something wrong with your sentence... every camera I see in the street is a Ja camera, (apart from ocassional Lomo), if they are behind why is every one buying them? Is every one stupid or is your sentence fallacious?

georg16nik said:
Leitz, Zeiss and why not Swarovski are doing pretty good, probably because they are more thinkers than spenders.

see my previous submission

Noel

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Xmas said:
There is something wrong with your sentence... every camera I see in the street is a Ja camera, (apart from ocassional Lomo), if they are behind why is every one buying them? Is every one stupid...
Noel

Sounds like on Your street, there are more Toyotas than BMW, Mercedes-Benz etc etc..
Does that mean, the Toyotas are ahead in the game and better cars?
So, to me it sounds like., in Your vocabulary.. Rolls-Royce must be a crappy car because most people can not afford it?

Monito · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
Ever heard about Leica Apo-Telyt 1:5,6/800mm?
Are You sure it performs worse than Canon, Nikons or any of the Japanese toys?
Let me help You with orientation in finding it
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-R-1-5-6-800-mm-Apo-Telyt-R-ROM-11842-118-/350481276912
US $14,499.00 You might suggest its expensive because its not good?...

You seem to equate expensive with automatically good here and in your other post referring to the Rolls-Royce. If the Leica 800 mm is so good, why was it produced for only four years and why is it out of production in 2009?

The Canon EF 800 mm f/5.6 L is in production, and (for whatever it might mean) costs about the same.

Only fanbois who feel threatened need to stoop so low as to call high quality camera equipment "toys" just because they are not made in Europe. In any case, most (all?) of the Zeiss lenses and cameras are made by Cosina in Asia.

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

The question was, do You know how Leica 800 mm performs against the Canon?.
Only the consumer products by Zeiss are made in Japan. The Pro stuff are being made in Wetzlar, Oberkoche etc etc

Monito · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
Only the consumer products by Zeiss are made in Japan. The Pro stuff are being made in Wetzlar, Oberkoche etc etc

Wrong.

georg16nik said:
The question was, do You know how Leica 800 mm performs against the Canon?.

You are the one making the claim that the Canon is a "toy" and that the Leica far outperforms the Canon. You should supply evidence for such nonsensical claims.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Aug 16, 2011

I dont give a dime to canon , I used it in 25 years , in many times and was the worst lenses possible ,
and I read german photo technique magazine a test on nikon , leica high power lenses and leica was 50 years forward. Why , because their mathematics knowledge , creativity with Russians are unequalled.
Some use canon , drive toyota
some use kodak , drive gm
but i will always use agfa ,leica and drive mercedes.

Monito · Aug 16, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I dont give a dime to canon , I used it in 25 years , in many times and was the worst lenses possible , and I read german photo technique magazine a test on nikon , leica high power lenses and leica was 50 years forward. Why , because their mathematics knowledge , creativity with Russians are unequalled. Some use canon , drive toyota some use kodak , drive gm but i will always use agfa ,leica and drive mercedes.

"worst lenses possible" ... such ridiculous statements are a real indication of the lack of merits of the poster's thesis.

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Monito said:
Wrong.

Zeiss have dedicated pages on their site for the case Germany vs Japan production.
For miscellaneous production.. e.g Zeiss Ikon RF camera and some of lenses made in Japan by Cosina.
Dead Link Removed
For the Sony ZA lenses, Z-series manual-focus SLR lenses
Dead Link Removed
Their 360° Super-rotator tilt/shift lenses are being manufactured in Germany and Ukraine.
Their lenses for Cinematography are in Germany where they are partnering with Arri. Arri is a German company as well.. the largest world wide supplier of motion picture film equipment.
Their Sports Optics divisions are in Wetzlar (Zeiss and Hendsolt) was in Oberkoche, only Hendsolt was in Wetzlar and is like that for around a century now.
Microscopes, Telescopes, Optical Sensors, Industrial Metrology.. Your guess?
..and the thread is about Zeiss and Leitz after WWll.
By default, here, we do not care about Canons, Nikons and rest of the plastic bubble gum machines..
The initial discussion started from Jupiter 3 (Zeiss derivative), that ziggy7 said, he is using it on Canon P.

BrianL · Aug 16, 2011

This thread is starting to sound like a cat fight. Leica vs the world, again. Leica did not need fast lenses as it concentrated on the rangefinder market where they were less important as well as long telephotos. They engineered and built to the camera format they concentrated on and did it well. Yes, they ventured into the SLR market and made some really nice SLRs in-house before deciding to go to Japan and outsource their development. I do not know the history of Leica's finances but it made sense to go to a company that had an investment in SLR R&D and give them the spec and let them build it. None the less, Leica's German SLRs are works of engineering art even if somewhat behind the tchnology times when they came out, a product of not having huge budgets.

Canon, Nikon, etc. like all optical makers have good lenses and dogs. Most makers including Zeiss and Leica also had less then steller models.

As for the patent owning discussion, much of the optical technology delivered to Japan from Germany was before the end end of WWII and either registered or came under common usage in Japan so whether Germany assigned patent rights to the US or not was of no consequence in Japan as Japan held independent patents. Japan's patent system is quite different from most of the world and they are aggressive in its registrations and enforcement. I was involved in a patent dispute between a number of UK speaker manufacturers and the Japanese speaker industry and learned that while under fire as I represented the UK speaker industry.

I think the naysayers as to Japanese optical makers are not unlike me. I tend to prefer European optics on the front of my cameras, or at least European formulas and coatings but I have to admit the Japanese can do it as well. It boils down to prsonal preference and shooting style.

Monito · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
By default, here, we do not care about Canons, Nikons and rest of the plastic bubble gum machines..

Only one of a set of completely ridiculous statements that show that poster's writings have no merit.

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Monito said:
Only one of a set of completely ridiculous statements that show that poster's writings have no merit.

So, far You haven't provided a single piece of information.
I have quoted quite a lot info and links since the start of the discussion and have proved that You post "Wrong" is in fact wrong.
Your credentials are ?

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

BrianL said:
This thread is starting to sound like a cat fight...

Brian, the thread have WWll in the title..
What do You expect it to be, especially when there are folks who don't backup their statement with verifiable information?
Read the threat, You will notice that even Fabrizio agreed that I am correct about the historical info that I posted.

Diapositivo · Aug 16, 2011

georg16nik said:
Read the threat, You will notice that even Fabrizio agreed that I am correct about the historical info that I posted.

"Even Fabrizio", do you mean that I normally can't agree with anybody?

georg16nik · Aug 16, 2011

Not at all!
You just needed to do a small refresh of history
rest of the folks are having hard time with sharing info, to say the least.

Zeiss and Leitz after WWII

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