Your Experience with Bulk loading 35mm Film

Hi dear Film Community,
I found myself going through a lot of film rolls recently, so I thought its best to get advice from you guys on bulk loading, maybe it is time for me to switch to it, (I shoot multi format and know my question applies mostly to 135, not so much to 120 and LF (however I know 70mm film still exists for MF though but rare and hard to find these days) ... also I love/use some different films for different purposes all the time, not sure how it'll work with bulk loading... ( should i get multiple loaders and multiple bulk films?) so over all i would appreciate the advices and insights from you on the topics below: [many thanks in advance]

• bulk loading pros and cons
• what has been your own personal experience?
• which loader is best to get? Lloyd, Western, Kaiser etc?
• new or second hand loader?
• plastic reusable screw-cap canisters vs used branded metal canisters from labs?
• Who is it for? Who would you recommend it for?
• Economy vs convenient? how much money/time can be saved? does it worth?
• old stock cinema film vs 100 ft branded ilford etc?

My experience with mass loaders is not very good. I had bought some old Watsons and Computrols with the idea of using them for various films. But the first unpleasant experience with them is that you lose the last one or two frames. This can be especially annoying if you miss an important point. To avoid this, you have to load in complete darkness, which to me pretty much makes the loader pointless.
The second thing that stopped me from using them is that they take up too much space in the fridge, and they take a lot more care when defrosting. If it condenses, it's bad for the film.
The third - I have a bad experience with scratching the film. It could be specifically from my loader numbers, but...
I wind rolls by hand without using a loader. I have made a methodology and it is done quickly, without problems.

I bulk load all the time. I don't actually care much which loader - I only use those to store the film. I pull some film off the spool in the dark and wind it by hand. I hate the plastic cassettes - they don't fit well in some cameras. There are plenty of reusable cassettes you can get, if you look for them. Old Ilford and old Kodak films came in reusable cassettes - although the older the cassette, the more likely it is to have cruddy velvet or leak light somehow.

Bulk loading allows you to make short rolls, which a lot of people (including me) like. However, every roll has the same amount of waste, so the more rolls you make from a 100 feet, the more you waste (4 inches of each roll, roughly, making the leader - add 1-2 inches to the other end if you use the actual loader to load the film).

Bulk loading is mainly for people who do their own developing. Otherwise, you need to tell the lab to give you back your cassette - which may slip their mind (or yours).

It is definitely cheaper to bulk load. Even if you buy the outrageously-priced Kodak bulk rolls of Tmax or Trix, you save a bit of money over buying factory rolls.

There are several threads about bulk loading here on Photrio that you might want to sift through for relevant information. There's been a lot of talk about cassettes, which bulk loaders work best, how to use them properly and what to look out for.

Mondo1 said:

bulk loading pros and cons

Click to expand...

Pros: flexibility in roll length, lower cost (often marginally in B&W), ability to use cine film stocks at low cost and higher volume (Vision3, Double X, E100D etc.), the fun of DIY-ing.
Cons: risk of light leaks, scratches etc. Takes time.

Mondo1 said:

what has been your own personal experience?

Click to expand...

It's OK. I bulk load most of the 135 I shoot, and in color it makes good economic sense if I use Vision3 film, which I currently shoot a lot of. For B&W it's not all that rational although it saves a little, but I still like the thought of doing it this way. It's mostly irrational though.

Mondo1 said:

which loader is best to get? Lloyd, Western, Kaiser etc?

Click to expand...

Got two old Watson-type teardrop-style loaders in separate bargains where they hitched a ride on some other stuff I bought. They're OK.

Mondo1 said:

new or second hand loader?

Click to expand...

Take your pick!

Mondo1 said:

plastic reusable screw-cap canisters vs used branded metal canisters from labs?

Click to expand...

The latter. I like the Fuji cassettes in particular because they open up nicely. Others like to leave them intact and just snip off the film and tape the new film to the bit that's still sticking out, but I prefer to disassemble and reload with new film. The former method saves you a little bit of film.

Mondo1 said:

Who is it for? Who would you recommend it for?

Click to expand...

That's really up to anyone to decide for themselves.

Mondo1 said:

Economy vs convenient? how much money/time can be saved? does it worth?

Click to expand...

Rationally, it's not really worth it economically if you shoot B&W film, if you ask me. Especially not if you value your time. The savings are quite marginal. For color cine film it's a different story and you can save quite a lot, but you'll have to live with the quirks of cine film, such as remjet backing on Vision3 films. But that's not directly related to bulk loading.

Mondo1 said:

old stock cinema film vs 100 ft branded ilford etc?

Click to expand...

The expired vs. fresh film discussion is a different one from bulk loading vs. factory-loaded cassettes. It's a viable debate, but I'd find or open a separate thread for it.

Koraks,
You made a comment about using spent 35mm cannisters from a photo lab. Do you have experience with obtaining them?

Bob

Bob Selders said:

Koraks,
You made a comment about using spent 35mm cannisters from a photo lab. Do you have experience with obtaining them?

Bob

Click to expand...

Sorry, to clarify, I use the spent canisters I keep from processing my own film.
If I had to get them from a lab, I'd just send an email to any lab in my vicinity and ask if I could get/purchase/bribe a bag of used cassettes off of them. They're usually discarded, so I guess most labs wouldn't mind helping you out.

If you can't get cartridges directly from a photo lab, there are listings on eBay.
My procedure is not to bother opening these cassettes (it's hard, but even harder to close them in the dark). Often when trying to open or close them, they are damaged - most often the caps are bent. There is no such problem with the older ones - with an "opener" they can be opened and can be used, but it is difficult to find such cartridges anymore. I use the "tab" of the film left over after cutting in the lab. I insert the new film into the cassette under the tab and stick them with tape on the upper side (on the base). It goes on tight and I've never had a problem with it coming off. Also, the last frame is completely usable because the tape connection is not in the way.

I agree with koraks, bulk loading BW film is not worth the bother. I bulk load a little for making film strips easier for Minox and Minolta 16, and since loader has film in it, and don't want film just sit for long time, I do load Leitz and Zeiss cassettes. Only Leitz, Zeiss, and Nikon cassettes made for some of their respective cameras provide scratch proof film. All used cassettes are risky.
When the time and effort applied to the whole process of producing a photograph: finding subject, selecting proper exposure, processing negative, printing, etc, why risk scratched or dust marked film. Doesn't make sense.

I use the AP Bobinquick 135; not an inexpensive loader, but I like the dial that keeps track of the film length remaining in the loader. I use the metal cassettes that used to be sold on eBay because these reusable cassettes cut down on the number of times the film runs through the felt. Bulk loading will save you some money, but I wouldn't start down this path for that reason only. I really do like the fact that I can load whatever length I desire. When I'm testing something, for example, I can load, say, 10 frames.

I bulk load most of my B&W films for two reasons. It is slightly cheaper for Ilford HP5+ and considerably cheaper for Fomapan 200 and 400. There's also a somewhat mysterious Exeter Pan film in the UK (likely Ilford P4 security film) which performs broadly like HP5+ and which is considerably cheaper in ulk rolls.

But it's not just cost. I can roll any length I like. I do a lot of shooting at small gigs where I might roll 18 exposures for one evening. That seems about right for most gigs. But sometimes I roll just 10 to take pictures of my cats or to test a camera, or 36 when going travelling. Bulk rolling gives that flexibility.

I've got a Watson 100, and an early Watson 66 as well as a Prinz 66 (cheaper knock-off of the Watson 66) and two Lloyds "Daylight" loaders. Each has pros and cons. I got every single one of them second hand and they all work.

Watson types: The light trap is a little fiddly when loading the thing in the dark but it's said to be superior to the felt traps in Lloyds types. If loading cassettes in daylight you will lose an exposure at the tail end due to fogging. If you load in darkness, it's fiddly. And for me this is about conveneince to some extent. As long as you remember to rotate the light trap open and closed at the correct times the trap works perfectly and these machines usually have a nice audible click for every frame you roll.

Lloyds types: Some say the felt light traps get dirty, though I don't find this to be a problem I am not shooting professionally and might not notice the slight difference. Grit/dirt in the felt trap certainly could scratch film so be careful of that. You don't lose a whole frame at the tail and front of the film with these loaders due to the design. But also they don't click, you count turns, and it's not 1 turn= 1 exposure. There's a handy guide on the side of the machine but you have to guess a bit for intermediate exposure counts. These are more simple and there's less to go wrong than in the Watsons.

I tend to keep a bulk roll of HP5+, one of Fomapan 100 or 200 and one of Fomapan 400 going. And at least one other film, currently the aforementioned Exeter Pan XX.

I have always used the plastic screw on cap cassettes. Never had any problem with them. Indeed I still have one that a school teacher gave me in 1987 when he taught me how to bulk roll. Only the gods know how many times it's been used but it's still going. I am careful with them and do not expect the brand new ones bought for me in 2019 will last as long but they are doing fine right now too.

Is it for you? depends on your goals. Is it convenient? I can load 10-15 rolls while watching the evening news. So it's no big inconvenience. If you have one or more types of film that you either shoot a lot of or want to shoot in anything other than 24 or 36 exposure cassettes, it might be for you. I got all my bulk loaders for bargain prices, one was given to me free. They all work. The different brands all seem to work though I would say that the cheaper Prinz 66 is a little unreliable in that the springs holding the lid on aren't as strong as I have fogged two rolls of film with that lid coming loose during loading. Two out of probably 80 I've done in that loader....the genuine Watsons and Lloyds machines have never failed me.

If you're intending to bulk load colour cine film such as Vision 3, it would be a LOT cheaper than buying C41 colour neg film in cassettes. For Ilford and Kentmere B&W film it's only a small saving. Foma the saving is bigger. Kodak B&W, forget it. It's more expensive. You might find some interesting films on sale on eBay such as the "Exeter Pan" I've mentioned. Occasionally old outdated rolls of branded film come up and you can be pretty sure that a 5 year expired Tri-X or Ilford film is going to be fine.

Pros and cons. I'd say if your prime motive is saving money and you are using Ilford, Kentmere or Kodak B&W film mostly it's not worth it.

Alan9940 said:

I use the AP Bobinquick 135; not an inexpensive loader, but I like the dial that keeps track of the film length remaining in the loader. I use the metal cassettes that used to be sold on eBay because these reusable cassettes cut down on the number of times the film runs through the felt. Bulk loading will save you some money, but I wouldn't start down this path for that reason only. I really do like the fact that I can load whatever length I desire. When I'm testing something, for example, I can load, say, 10 frames.

Click to expand...

Another advantage of the AP Bobinquick is that I don't loose the last couple of frames, with care, I only need 5 perforations length of the film sticking out of the loader to be able to attach the take-up spool (I use the metal reloadable cassettes that are sold on Ebay by samprivet in Ukraine).

In addition to the benefits mentioned before me, there is one more. You will be left with beautiful empty boxes. Fomapan has nice metal round ones.

Mondo1 said:

Hi dear Film Community,
I found myself going through a lot of film rolls recently, so I thought its best to get advice from you guys on bulk loading, maybe it is time for me to switch to it, (I shoot multi format and know my question applies mostly to 135, not so much to 120 and LF (however I know 70mm film still exists for MF though but rare and hard to find these days) ... also I love/use some different films for different purposes all the time, not sure how it'll work with bulk loading... ( should i get multiple loaders and multiple bulk films?) so over all i would appreciate the advices and insights from you on the topics below: [many thanks in advance]

• bulk loading pros and cons
• what has been your own personal experience?
• which loader is best to get? Lloyd, Western, Kaiser etc?
• new or second hand loader?
• plastic reusable screw-cap canisters vs used branded metal canisters from labs?
• Who is it for? Who would you recommend it for?
• Economy vs convenient? how much money/time can be saved? does it worth?
• old stock cinema film vs 100 ft branded ilford etc?

Click to expand...

My father used to bulk load, and so I've been doing this since I was young (35mm only). To me is natural, but I expect that the learning curve is steep. I've never bulk loaded color

Film: I generally buy branded film (Agfa, Ilford, Adox, Arista), but opportunistically I'd use medical or movie stock (DoubleX).

Cassettes: In the 70s my father used Kodak and AGFA branded reusable cassettes, and I bought a lot of metal BKA in the early 00s when a store was closing. Check that the felt is not gritty or missing.

Brands: I have a couple of Lloyd loaders and they are easy to work with after some experience. I store the loader in a dark plastic bag inside a lighttight box just for extra extra safety.
At some point I had a Soligor (looks like the Western/Alden) and it was fine.

Pros
- Cost (at least until 20yrs ago)
- You can make rolls with as many frames as you want
- Great if you develop yourself
- It's fun

Cons
- You are stuck with 1 type of film per loader.
- Learning curve
- Planning ahead
- Labs dont like self loaded film anymore

depends on the brand, for example you save more bulk loading already cheap FP400 than HP5... I think is a brand decision, I dont belive for ilford costs 130€ to sell you 30m of hp5. But for whatever reason they prefer to force you to buy rolls directly from them.

In long term, every euro counts. Think about 40 years of shooting film, even 1€ per roll is still money.

I bulk load 35mm black and white Kodak film, which means I handle each individual roll as if it was a precious jewel!
One further advantage that I enjoy is that 30 metre rolls are small and well protected when in the refrigerator or freezer-during those times when I’m fortunate to have room in the budget to have more than one bulk roll in inventory.
I currently have both Watson and Lloyds style loaders in use - one for Kodak T-Max 100 and one for Kodak T-Max 400. I am happy using either one. Both were used when I got them. If I was looking for another, I would base my decision on condition.
Thinking back, it looks like I have been bulk loading at various times for almost 50 years - I have no idea how old my oldest reusable cassettes are, but I think at least some of them came from a store that a friend managed back in the 1970-80s that offered a “house brand” film.

MattKing said:

I bulk load 35mm black and white Kodak film, which means I handle each individual roll as if it was a precious jewel!
One further advantage that I enjoy is that 30 metre rolls are small and well protected when in the refrigerator or freezer-during those times when I’m fortunate to have room in the budget to have more than one bulk roll in inventory.
I currently have both Watson and Lloyds style loaders in use - one for Kodak T-Max 100 and one for Kodak T-Max 400. I am happy using either one. Both were used when I got them. If I was looking for another, I would base my decision on condition.
Thinking back, it looks like I have been bulk loading at various times for almost 50 years - I have no idea how old my oldest reusable cassettes are, but I think at least some of them came from a store that a friend managed back in the 1970-80s that offered a “house brand” film.

Click to expand...

oh, space on the fridge is also a very valuable asset for me that makes bulk loading better. Is either keeping 18 rolls or having to travel more often to the store, which both things annoys me quite a lot. So that's a plus for bulk loading.

I tried bulk loading a bit, on Ilford Pan F+ and saved a bit. But in the end decided that the small savings is not worth the extra effort (more work, limit of one emulsion per roll, potential scratches).

Even for cine film (50D, 500T, E100D), I now buy already re-spooled rolls instead of bulk rolls. There is a vibrant market of companies/individuals re-spooling the bulk rolls, and the price has been very competitive.

Bulk loading is about a lower price per roll. Money is the main reason and the second reason is storage/hoarding. Compare prices for 100’ cans enough for 18 rolls and if the math is ok then bulk rolling is great for the starving artist. Back when Arista was really TriX, PlusX and Acros you can save a lot of money and more so if you buy short dated ones from Freestyle. Today not much chance of that since bulk and pre-rolled don’t have much of a gap. But the hoarder can manage to find expired rolls and freeze them and you can pack more cans than rolls.

I would shoot factory rolled TMY and process the film but save the cartridge for rolling. Soon my bag would have 20 something rolls for a photo trip with factory and bulk rolls of TMY mixed together. In case I f’d up somehow like a light leak half of my film would be ok. I only reuse the canisters once. Today I don’t shoot enough analog to bother.

Neofito said:

oh, space on the fridge is also a very valuable asset for me that makes bulk loading better. Is either keeping 18 rolls or having to travel more often to the store, which both things annoys me quite a lot. So that's a plus for bulk loading.

Click to expand...

Yep thats a pretty importan issue for me. I only have the lower shelf on my fridge for film stock so keeping a Lloyd film loader saves space.

I've been loading 35mm film since the 80's. Had both good experiences and some mistakes (like opening a film loader that had some film in there and was mislabeled). Just keep them properly labeled and you are good to go.

not so much to 120 and LF (however I know 70mm film still exists for MF though but rare and hard to find these days) ...

Click to expand...

Aviphot is sold by many sellers on Ebay (mostly from India). It is expired but seems film was freeze and don't have much (if any) fog. Been reloading 120 from the last 2 years, only buying cheap 120 rolls to get new backing paper

I prefer the Lloyd loader type for size but find other types (the ones with frame counters) to be more practical, since you don't need to keep count of frames/turns mentally.

Like other have pointed out, main advantage of bulk loader (35mm) is that you save a bit (lately not much, but still some) and that you can load custom size rolls, so you don't need to waste frames when you only need to take a few pictures. Also, since all rolls of a certain type of film came from the same bulk roll, all of those rolls have the same expire date so keep better control of film stock.

Keep an eye for russian metal film cassetes on ebay. They often pops up and are great. I like those better than Kodak metal or common plastics.

Mondo1 said:

Hi dear Film Community,
I found myself going through a lot of film rolls recently, so I thought its best to get advice from you guys on bulk loading, maybe it is time for me to switch to it, (I shoot multi format and know my question applies mostly to 135, not so much to 120 and LF (however I know 70mm film still exists for MF though but rare and hard to find these days) ... also I love/use some different films for different purposes all the time, not sure how it'll work with bulk loading... ( should i get multiple loaders and multiple bulk films?) so over all i would appreciate the advices and insights from you on the topics below: [many thanks in advance]

• bulk loading pros and cons
• what has been your own personal experience?
• which loader is best to get? Lloyd, Western, Kaiser etc?
• new or second hand loader?
• plastic reusable screw-cap canisters vs used branded metal canisters from labs?
• Who is it for? Who would you recommend it for?
• Economy vs convenient? how much money/time can be saved? does it worth?
• old stock cinema film vs 100 ft branded ilford etc?

Click to expand...

I have done this on- and off.

It's great for creating shorter length rolls (I rarely shoot 36exp in one go).

It's cheap (relatively).

It's cumbersome and has dust risks, so keeping everything very clean is important.

The plastic cassettes are garbage and to be avoided at all costs. The Kodak Snap Caps are marginally better but they can be grumpy about snapping back together.

Whenever I shoot Ilford or Kodak 35mm, I don't fully rewind it into the cassette when done. I leave the leader sticking out. That way I can pull the film out in the dark when processing, and cut it with about 1/2" of film sticking out of the cassette. That then becomes a reusable high quality cassette for bulk loading.

If you do this, it's important, again, to keep the fabric light trap clean on the cassette. I used pressurized air to blow it clean.

blee1996 said:

I tried bulk loading a bit, on Ilford Pan F+ and saved a bit. But in the end decided that the small savings is not worth the extra effort (more work, limit of one emulsion per roll, potential scratches).

Even for cine film (50D, 500T, E100D), I now buy already re-spooled rolls instead of bulk rolls. There is a vibrant market of companies/individuals re-spooling the bulk rolls, and the price has been very competitive.

Click to expand...

How competitive is the price of rewound rolls? When I roll myself, the price comes out to me $4.70 for the Vision3 and about $8.65 for the E100D. Price for 36 frames. There are various offers on eBay, but most of them are unclear about where these rolls come from. For others, the prices are absurd - for example, FPP sells them for $10, which is more than some Kodak photo films. This without any manipulation of the film. On the other hand, CineStill sells their films for $15-$16, but now with the anti-halation coating removed.

I have been bulk rolling for 15 years in 35mm and prefer it to the canisters. back in the day it was half the price, though as many have mentioned today the cost savings is no longer there on most films. I did buy a lot of bulk rolls when i was told they were gonna go away or up in price. so having a lot of tmax 100, 400, tri-x, acros, provia and superia 400 in the freezer makes me feel good. now I buy 400 ft rolls of ektachrome 100. the price makes it the cheapest color 35mm film I can buy and i love to actually project it. for new bought 35mm B&W, I find the best deals on rollei retro 80s and HR-50 and cms 20 when they are in stock at fotoimpex. they still provide a great discount over pre-rolled.

john

1. I have bulk loaded film since the 1970's.

2. I don't like bulk loading film but certain films are only available in 100 foot/30M rolls. e.g. Microfilm and Cine films like Double-X.

3. I don't like bulk loading film but some films are ridiculously expensive per roll.

1. Caveat to #3, for a long time Kodak prices were "upside down" and their loaded cartridges were cheaper than the same amount of bulk film.

4. The cartridges you can get from the lab, even your own lab are made to be used just once--"one and done"--get reloadable cartridges, note that many of the old 35mm films from Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Ilford, and house brands WERE reloadable, and had snap off ends. I acquire these, especially the ones marked with DX codes, whenever I can.

5. If you "must" be a tightwad and leave the tongue out of a non-reloadable cartridge at least use the proper tape, the stuff made for attaching rolls of film to leader cards in film processors is really good. And use two pieces, one on each side of your splice. You will still eventually lose a roll of film when to pull the film off the end of the cartridge.

6. Stop calling cartridges "cassettes" or "magazines" (looking at you Kodak). There are differences. Cassettes are made for one specific type of camera, they do not really wear out but only fir a few cameras.

7. Kodak Snap Cap "Magazines" are probably the best cartridges out there but even they do not have an infinite use life. The felt lips pick up crud from the film and camera wells and wear out. I have a pretty good stash of unused Snap Caps, and no they are not for sale.

8. I don't worry about the extra "wasted" film at the spool end of a bulk load. I "load long" and crank 27 clicks into my 24 exposure reloads. Note that your shot discipline should tell you when you are out of frames. If you are blessed with a camera that runs the film out and then rewinds as you shoot, simply fire off the first two pre-exposed frames.

9. Loaders? I like the Watson 100, which has had a lot of different re-incarnations over the years with different color schemes, etc. (I'm sure someone has a collection). I don't like the 66 and 74 loaders so much because of the completely detached covers but that said they are better made than the 100's and the covers fit better. The Lloyd, etc. is perfect for unperforated films such as microfilm, and a few others.

Sorry for the wordy reply.

I've been bulk loading since I took over the photography program at the school I teach at. Lets see, that's 6 years now. We absolutely have to bulk load, for the economics of it. On a good day, I can pump out 60 rolls (of about 8 exposures each) in an hour. We have three Watson loaders. One with HP5, one with FP4, and another with Kentmere 400 (switching over to Kentmere films are they are heaps cheaper!) If I did a lot of 35mm for myself, it is how I would go. The savings are still quite good.

I bulk load quite a bit. It can save me anywhere between $1.50 and $5.00 (USD) per roll. I can afford to skip the savings but it is very easy to do. I am quite the clutz but can sit down and finish a bulk roll inside a changing tent ( https://www.adorama.com/adpfcr.html ) using a Watson style loader while watching a half hour television show. The hard part is finding good cartridges. They are easy to find here but I have no idea how you would go about it in Australia.

Good luck!