You Folks At Ilford Could Save Yourselves Some $$Money By...

DF · Sep 7, 2020

....by doing away with that little folded-up "instruction" booklet that comes inside your photo papers. It first.goes directly into the trash along with the torn tab that opens it up, or if you have a box, well, you know, same thing.
Long ago, my very first box of paper, photo lab 101, I took it out, unfolded it, tried to make sense of it, and that was it, like with every/anyone else.
Just a thought....

BrianShaw · Sep 8, 2020

Shouldn’t you send this suggestion to the good folks at Ilford. It seems that they haven’t participated here for many years.

Bikerider · Sep 8, 2020

They would not save $$ more like ££!

Realistically, I cannot see how it will save them anything. There will be some people who have not used their paper before or have not remembered the information and need a bit of guidance what filtration values are and also processing time. Folding it up is a common factor too, if it was left open it would not fit inside the the smaller packets or boxes so folding it up covers all bases.

Ian Grant · Sep 8, 2020

I've been printing for a few years now (over 50) and still find the manufacturers data sheets enclosed in the paper boxes useful. I have kept some of them in my box of data-sheets in my darkroom. In terms of cost the savings wouldn't amount to much at all. I suppose we could go back to the days where companies printed the instructions on the outside of the boxes or packets

OK this is plates but it could be done for paper as well

Ian

RalphLambrecht · Sep 8, 2020

DF said:
....by doing away with that little folded-up "instruction" booklet that comes inside your photo papers. It first.goes directly into the trash along with the torn tab that opens it up, or if you have a box, well, you know, same thing.
Long ago, my very first box of paper, photo lab 101, I took it out, unfolded it, tried to make sense of it, and that was it, like with every/anyone else.
Just a thought....

considering what they are able to chage for a box of paper these days, it really makes no difference.

Harman Tech Service · Sep 8, 2020

This has been an ongoing debate here for years. The reason that we have stayed with including leaflets is that we do have new printers and infrequent printers buying our products as well as the "seasoned regulars". However, our policy could change in the future, we would like to avoid the waste but it is a difficult balance to strike.

Regards,
David

Donald Qualls · Sep 8, 2020

One option that would provide the instructions for those who need/want them and avoid the cost and resource waste of printing, folding, and packing the paper data sheet in with the photo paper would be to include a QR code on the box label, linked to an online copy of the data sheet -- or perhaps actually containing the data sheet; I don't know what the limitations are for QR. Putting this on the external box label would mean it's accessible before opening the box (potentially convenient and likely to save a few boxes from fogging by being opened in white light).

Sal Santamaura · Sep 8, 2020

BrianShaw said:
Shouldn’t you send this suggestion to the good folks at Ilford. It seems that they haven’t participated here for many years.

Guess not:

Harman Tech Service said:
This has been an ongoing debate here for years. The reason that we have stayed with including leaflets is that we do have new printers and infrequent printers buying our products as well as the "seasoned regulars". However, our policy could change in the future, we would like to avoid the waste but it is a difficult balance to strike.

Regards,
David

MattKing · Sep 8, 2020

Harman Tech Service said:
This has been an ongoing debate here for years. The reason that we have stayed with including leaflets is that we do have new printers and infrequent printers buying our products as well as the "seasoned regulars". However, our policy could change in the future, we would like to avoid the waste but it is a difficult balance to strike.

Regards,
David

You could probably put an internet link on the outside of the packaging, and include the leaflets in the products that are most likely to be used by beginners.
I doubt many beginners are starting out with 16x20 Warmtone (as an example).
You could even make it a feature: "Includes an instruction leaflet - perfect for new users and those experienced in the darkroom!"

Hatchetman · Sep 8, 2020

Even though I don't use them I am very fond of the little Ilford stickers included in the boxes. Some day I may affix one to one of my prints.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 8, 2020

Glad to see the good folks at Ilford participating here at Photrio. There are a lot of new analogue photographers and darkroom workers out there, and I think it’s good to encourage them by giving them as much information as they need. They can look stuff up on the internet, and surely do that for all the films that no longer include the patient package insert, but while you’re there in the darkroom opening a box of paper under the safelight, it would seem helpful to have the information right there for the folks who haven’t been printing for decades.

Bikerider · Sep 8, 2020

Harman Tech Service said:
This has been an ongoing debate here for years. The reason that we have stayed with including leaflets is that we do have new printers and infrequent printers buying our products as well as the "seasoned regulars". However, our policy could change in the future, we would like to avoid the waste but it is a difficult balance to strike.

Regards,
David

Unfortunately David, there are many folk who never ever read the advice and enclosed instructions whatever you do. I am not sure if the Multigrade filter numbers are on your website, but I'll wager they don't look there either! Then when things go wrong they tend to blame anyone or anything apart from their stubbornness or is it stupidity! I have my idea but I will let others make up their own mind.
I would say leaving the leaflets enclosed is a cheap insurance against complaints that things have gone wrong and it is all your (Ilford's) fault. If the advice is enclosed then it is down to them if it goes wrong.

wyofilm · Sep 8, 2020

I think that Ilford is doing a great job of communicating technical information. For example, their Ilford Photo Darkroom youtube series is just what is needed to get new darkroom users. The videos are well produced, informative, and aimed at the right audience. The latest one on papers will surely help many navigate the myriad of papers. I hope Ilford plans to keep the series going.

Cholentpot · Sep 8, 2020

Harman Tech Service said:
This has been an ongoing debate here for years. The reason that we have stayed with including leaflets is that we do have new printers and infrequent printers buying our products as well as the "seasoned regulars". However, our policy could change in the future, we would like to avoid the waste but it is a difficult balance to strike.

Regards,
David

I use those papers every time I print. It's very useful to me and I would assume others find it useful. We're not all darkroom wizards.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2020

Cholentpot said:
I use those papers every time I print. It's very useful to me and I would assume others find it useful. We're not all darkroom wizards.

But do you need a new one with every package you buy?
Would a pdf version on their website (linked to on the box and printed by you) suffice?

cowanw · Sep 8, 2020

I use mine regularly and have several for different enlargers. the do get lost or damaged and I prefer not to be forced to use my computer and printer and paper unnecessarily. I am quite happy as is.

pentaxuser · Sep 8, 2020

MattKing said:
But do you need a new one with every package you buy?
Would a pdf version on their website (linked to on the box and printed by you) suffice?

No to the first question but if including a sheet in the box so a person has something to read ( some of us still like reading from a printed sheet) show care for the customer and I think it does, how do you ensure that that person does not get another sheet in the second box he buys? Isn't it all or nothing? Either the practice ceases or carries on assuming of course that ceasing the practice reduces the cost to Ilford by an amount to make a difference and does not affect its reputation for customer care, I do wonder if this would be the case

pentaxuser

wyofilm · Sep 8, 2020

I'm thinking much ado about nothing. I like the inserts, but would manage just fine without them. My darkroom (bathroom off a free standing garage/shop) lacks internet service, no computer, no printer. Therefore, a small burden for me to remember to print needed items before heading out the front door.

Adrian Bacon · Sep 8, 2020

MattKing said:
But do you need a new one with every package you buy?
Would a pdf version on their website (linked to on the box and printed by you) suffice?

No, but I have grabbed the one included in a box the first time I've used that type of paper and keep it for reference. After that, not so much, so there is a bit of a balance there. Ilford could included it in things like 25 sheets of 8x10 or 5x7 as those likely would be used by a beginner/infrequent printer, but boxes of 50 or 100 (or more?), put a QR code on the outside of the box and make it very clear that the data sheet is available online.

Just as a practice, I'd put the QR code or a short link to the manual on the outside of the box (and make it unique for each catalog number), then monitor which catalog numbers get the most lookups and stop including the paper manual in with those numbers. It's a little work, but will tell you really concretely which catalog numbers are least likely to need a paper manual included. Even though the cost per copy of the manual is probably pretty small, it does add up over time.

cmacd123 · Sep 8, 2020

I have kept several, the information does get updated from time to time. Of course I still miss the little data sheet that used to come i every roll of film.

Cholentpot · Sep 8, 2020

MattKing said:
But do you need a new one with every package you buy?
Would a pdf version on their website (linked to on the box and printed by you) suffice?

I don't print very often. I'd rather have something that is fully independent of the internet. I don't want to go online to find out what to do with a fully 100% offline process.

mshchem · Sep 8, 2020

Those leaflets are wonderful. I still have data sheets from Panatomic X sheet film. I use them. I like the development times printed on the inside of film boxes too, not as much as when there were instructions with the film. I carry around a old flap,of backing paper from a roll of Verichrome in my wallet. Every time a newbie starts in about needing to spend $300 bucks on a new meter I show them the recommended settings from that ancient roll of Verichrome. That's all you need outside with negative film. I love that Ilford 120 still comes in an individual box, why, because I put the flap in my memo holder on my camera, 120 or 35mm. I was at my local shop the other day, all he sells in black and white is Ilford, in part because he can put the little boxes out for people to help themselves.
The work Ilford is doing on line is AWESOME Ilford is growing a whole new group of customers online. When I come across a person that wants to get started in analog I advise them to go to Ilford's website and follow their instructions. Buy all the articles from Ilford to start, there's plenty of time for discovering the wonders of XTOL down the road, (assuming there will be XTOL) JUST KEEP MAKING BROMOPHEN! !!

MattKing · Sep 8, 2020

Somehow I think that asking this question of the posters here is like asking a convention of hoarders whether they want more paper!
I, of course, have multiple duplicate copies of these leaflets.

Bikerider · Sep 9, 2020

mshchem said:
Those leaflets are wonderful. I still have data sheets from Panatomic X sheet film. I use them. I like the development times printed on the inside of film boxes too, not as much as when there were instructions with the film./QUOTE]

A cautionary tale about the development times printed inside the boxes of film. I was struck with a couple of films being grossly under developed a few years ago and when I contacted the manufacturer I was told:-
When we have the boxes printed we get thousands upon thousands done at the same time and if during the time we have that batch in stock a film emulsion changes and the recommended development time may also change. The only recourse to correct development is to go to our website and check. That is up to date information, not necessarily what is printed on the box which is possibly out of date.

BradS · Sep 9, 2020

Cholentpot said:
I use those papers every time I print. It's very useful to me and I would assume others find it useful. We're not all darkroom wizards.

me too. Well said.

Ilford, please keep the leaflets. They’re very helpful and very much appreciated.

You Folks At Ilford Could Save Yourselves Some $$Money By...

DF

BrianShaw

Bikerider

Ian Grant

RalphLambrecht

Harman Tech Service

Partner

Donald Qualls

Sal Santamaura

MattKing

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Hatchetman

David A. Goldfarb

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Bikerider

wyofilm

Cholentpot

MattKing

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cowanw

pentaxuser

wyofilm

Adrian Bacon

cmacd123

Cholentpot

mshchem

MattKing

Moderator

Bikerider

BradS

You Folks At Ilford Could Save Yourselves Some $$Money By...

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