Yikes! Negative problem

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 11, 2003

I'd greatly appreciate any insight on how to fix and / or avoid this problem.

I've developed a roll of Tri-X as I have countless times in the past. I'm always extremely careful with my developing technique, and I've never had any problems in the past. However, on this roll, I have horizontal bands running the width of this negative, and to a lesser extent, a few other images on the roll. This is the last frame, and it's by far the worst. I've scanned it off the contact sheet. Any clues on what caused it? And better yet, any suggestions on how I might be able to fix it? I very much like this image.

Dead Link Removed

Thanks in advance for any help.

- Cheryl

Jorge · Jun 12, 2003

Looks like different temperature lines. As you fill the tank it seems the developer is higher temperature and as it cools down is giving you less density. If you are using a water bath to keep the temperature constant it seems it is not covering the tank.

Sorry, cant think of any fix other than burning. Maybe a mask would help, but with a small negative it is somewhat difficult to make.

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

Jorge, if it's temperature lines, wouldn't I expect to see the same problem on all the negs?

Jorge · Jun 12, 2003

I dont have enough info, but if I understand correctly this happened in one entire roll. I dont know if your tank has them stacked or is it a single roll tank. The only times I have seen this happen is when temperature varies, or when one side of the roll slips out and sticks to the film on the outer loop as you are rolling the film into the reel. Then again, the photo Gods might be upset with you..

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

Then again, the photo Gods might be upset with you

Ah, yes. I think that's it. They must be extremely upset with me to have robbed me of a choice neg! Well, all is not lost yet. This might be one of those negs that looks great when sandpapered and diffused.....

Aggie · Jun 12, 2003

Nige · Jun 12, 2003

you dripped developer down the length of film! ok that's not it!

What intrigues me is that you have different densities in the bands but they are not least->most. Having done this once, if you'd didn't have enough developer in the tank I think you'd get a distinct line where the developer came to. Even if you sat the tank down uneveningly you'd get light at the top, dense at the bottom with varying bits in the middle. This assumes you're processing in a small tank? If you're using some sideways mounted roller device...

I'm more wondering a light leak somewhere. Do you bulk load your film? What are the film edges like, any fogging? Also check the inter neg gaps.

Robert · Jun 12, 2003

I can't see anything on my monitor it's too dark-(( You say it's on multiple frames. What about them is the same? Are they in a row? Or would they have been in the same general spot on the reel?

Ed Sukach · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl Jacobs said:
I'd greatly appreciate any insight on how to fix and / or avoid this problem.

I've developed a roll of Tri-X as I have countless times in the past.

My first thought is insufficient developer volume ...

But before I "leap", I'd like a little more information: What film format?; Was this in a "manual" or "rotary processed" (i.e. JOBO) tank? If it was in a rotary-spooled tank, was the worst example of this on the frame closest to the center of the tank?

I'm guessing ... and this doesn't seem at all likey, but it *might* be that the film buckled outward on the spool - somehow (possibly jumped the track?) - and there wasn't *quite* enough developer to cover, so that, in rotation, the developer was sloshed toward the center of the film. Better yet, ?????

The chances of that all happening are remote ... but I don't know what else "fits".

I once decided to develop a roll of 120 AgfaPan 400 in Rodinal, manually inverting the usual JOBO 1500 series tank twice every 30 seconds for agitation. Unfortunately (see: Duh!), I had used the same amount of developer for "hand inversion" as I would have in the usual machine roation - about half of what it should have been. The result? Half the frame (the top half as it sits in the non-inverted position) severely underdeveloped.

So that is my best guess - and in writng this, I found that I've *fried* the batteries in my crystal ball.

frank · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl,

First, hi there, and welcome to APUG!

If you were using 35mm or 120 film, check the spaces between the picture frames. Is there any density banding there?

Frank S.

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

OK, looks like I need to give a bit more information....

The film is 220. It was processed in a small tank, just the one roll by itself. It was loaded onto a plastic reel (the kind with the ball bearings) and I didn't notice any catches in the film as it wound. Seemed fine. I'm 100% certain there was enough developer in the tank, because I measure very carefully and know exactly how much fits into it. The way the film loads onto the reel, this frame would've been the outermost image on the outside of the reel. There are maybe five or six other frames affected, but not nearly to the extent of this one. I can see six definite bands on this negative; on the others, I can see maybe two or three, and they're much wider and more faint. Frank, I can't see any banding between the frames, but I'm not sure I would -- they're harder to see in the dark areas, and on some of the negs, I didn't see the bands on visual inspection, only after I printed. The affected frames are not all in a row. A few are at the end, and a few more are in the middle. I don't see any fogging on the film edges.

I initially thought something had dripped down the neg strip as they dried, but (duh!) that would've caused banding vertically, not horizontally.

Incidentally, I keep my house at 70 degrees, which is the same temperature as my developer, so I don't think temperature drop-off would be the culprit.....

frank · Jun 12, 2003

Boy, that's commitment - keeping your house the same temperature as your processing temperature - good thing you aren't doing colour at some much higher temp!

When you took the film reel out of the tank, was the very end of the roll still engaged in the reel's grooves?

Frank

Ed Sukach · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl Jacobs said:
OK, looks like I need to give a bit more information....

The film is 220. It was processed in a small tank, just the one roll by itself. It was loaded onto a plastic reel (the kind with the ball bearings) and I didn't notice any catches in the film as it wound. Seemed fine. I'm 100% certain there was enough developer in the tank, because I measure very carefully and know exactly how much fits into it.

Oh ... well, in that case ... It might have been tribo- or sono- luminescese, or, or .... uh ... did lightning happen to strike the tank? .... or ... or...

I'm reduced to only one thing left ... the "safety valve" for all processing problems ... Must've been defective film ... Yeh, that's it ...

Back to reality: Damned if I know.

When you speak of "horizontal" banding, do you mean "at right angles to the long edge of the complete roll"?

photodon · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl, are the stripes across the roll, or along the long direction? Since this is 2 1/4 square, it is hard to know. If it is across the roll,about the only possibility would be the film end touching the emulsion, and moving during the processing. If it was a filling problem, the stripes would be running
the same direction, and be on the bottom of all the frames. I would think that if the stripes run the short direction, I would look for a problem outside the tank. A light leak could run that direction, and cause the random stripes. Put the film back on the reel and see if the stripes are in the same location.If your camera has a focal plane shutter: it could be sticky??? or just a plain old light leak it the darkroom.

Eric Rose · Jun 12, 2003

try re-fixing them in a tray. 2 minutes should do it.

juan · Jun 12, 2003

Just to raise something completely different that may have nothing to do with it - is this old Tri-X or the new stuff? If new, have you developed the new before? There's been quite a lot of discussion about Kodak's published developing times. I also read something about a bad batch or two of the new Tri-X, although I can't find the link Also, Kodak recommends a hardening fixer for the new stuff.
juan

Brett · Jun 12, 2003

Yeah, like everyone else, its hard to see it being chemical. Have you checked for light leaks in your darkroom?

I once had an A12 film back for a blad that got a little bent (I lent it to a mate**). It had a very slight light leak, which did not noticeably affect the film when shooting and winding on relatively quickly, and so, most frames were fine. However, some exposed frames left stationary near the leak for a period of time, say between locations at a wedding, etc, sometimes had slight to moderate fogging, in bands across the film.

Like I said, its hard to tell, but leave no stone unturned, lest it may continue.

Brett

fingel · Jun 12, 2003

Where did you load the film into the tank? I had something similar happen when I used to load 220 film in a darkened hallway. It looked dark, but wasn't, you would still get some stray light comming in even if you stuffed blankets under the doors.

Also, is the floor of where ever you are loading the tank carpeted? With 220 film I would occasionally get some static electricity "glow" for lack of a better term on the film surface while unrolling the film to put on the reel.

Those are just some thoughts.

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

The stripes are running perpendicular to the film edge, not down the length of the film strip. Because of that, I ruled out anything happening post-development, and think it must've happened either in the tank, or, conceivably, as mentioned, in camera. I'll shoot another roll under the same conditions and see if it happens again. If it does, I'll probably have to take the camera in for a check-up.

I loaded the film in my darkroom, which I've tested thoroughly for light leaks -- found none. It is carpeted, though, so I guess static is a possibility. I didn't see anything that would've alarmed me while loading the film, though. Ah, the mysteries of ESD.

I'll definitely try re-fixing and see if that helps. Couldn't hurt!

Love all the help I'm getting here. I greatly appreciate it! You're a very supportive (and knowledgeable) bunch.

Off to try the fixer rescue....

bmac · Jun 12, 2003

I have gotten bands on my negs once in a while. I believe, in my case, it was caused by not rolling the film up tight enough after exposure, pre development. This is with 120 and 220 film.

Aggie · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

Aggie, yes, I'm extremely conscientious about my developing, including tapping out the air bubbles. Never had a problem until now.

Annemarieke · Jun 12, 2003

Cheryl, you say this negative was the outermost negative on the reel. Could it somehow have stuck to the side of the tank during development, causing these bands?

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 12, 2003

Anything's possible, although the negs were spooled properly when I took them out of the tank. Also, there were negs with that same problem on the inside of the spool as well.

David Vickery · Jun 12, 2003

I would also look at the possibility of a light leak. While the film is in camera, since there is not any banding outside of the image areas. Not rolling it tight enough would cause the banding to be out side of the image area also. I think static would have a different shape entirely. What kind of camera is it? It looks like it could be caused by a jumpy, focal plain shutter.

Yikes! Negative problem

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