Yet another question about what scanner to buy..

Hello !
I am new here, and newly back to film. I used film many years ago, then went digital, and am about to get a Mamiya 6 (120 film) to try out this B/W film malarky.
However, I didn't realise it was so complicated !
My scanner does not scan film, so i need to get a new one. Now, what do I do - I can't afford a coolscan 8000, can't really afford anything, but do want to end up with striking images (subject matter aside..).
So, what do I need to be looking at - will a cheap scanner, (ie under 200, so maybe the Canon V500) do a passable job, or will I find that the jump in quality over my Canon 5d is not large enough to convince me to follow up this film thing. Do I need to be looking at a V700 or similar, at 340 or so, or do I really need to think about a second hand coolscan, at 800 (there is one on ebay right now at 750, so it will go for well over that, I expect)
I have no idea how to scan, or what I will need to learn, so the easier it is to use the better. Many thanks for any help !
I guess any suggestions as to where to look for second hand aside from ebay would be good - I also need to equip myself for film developing !
Cheers

Steve

PS - I have spent ages looking here first, so have read plenty, but come to no conclusions at all....

I'd find a second hand film scanner that handles medium format well, instead of a new V700. These flat beds are great for large format, but when using 35 mm and medium format, film scanners really shine.

Hope you find an inexpensive used machine in great shape.

The epson 4990 does a passable job with 6x6 chromes and substantially better on 6x6 negs. I picked up a refurbed 4990 from epson for peanuts, they even paid for the shipping.

But I'd agree with Walt and say, shoot some lovely frames and when you can afford it, get yourself a nice Nikon scanner or similar. Until then, you can gaze at your lovely chromes on a light table wth a loupe or contact print your b&w negs and have a really good time. Or pick up a 4990 or similar for pretty decent scans... but you have to use vuescan, the epson software is no good, in my opinion.

You'll love the Mamiya 6. What you must do, in my opinion, is shoot some chromes and get your favourite frame drum scanned. That will give you an idea of what is possible with this camera. It is quite inspiring and will motivate you to wait and save $$$ until you can get the best scanner within your budget. So, with that result, you can make informed decisions about what scanner is best for your needs, and what is ultimately possible.

It's all a matter of bang for your buck and what suits you best.

Steve,

Sheer curiosity here. If you've been shooting digital for what I gather is a number of years I would imagine you've gotten at least somewhat accustomed to the workflow. Why would you want to revert BACK to film?

I for one have pretty much always shot film, save for a short "digital stint" a few years back which lasted no more then two months or so. All of my gear (bodies, optics, etc) are film-based, and digital gear that would yield 'comparable' resolution for the type of images I like to shoot is both incredibly bulky and cost-prohibitive (Canon 1ds-Mark3). So I opt to shoot film because it was 'easier' in many respects, adopting a simple scanner (LS-9000) to incorporate digital editing and the Epson 3800 for output. But I am slowly migrating to digital.

I've researched the 35mm segment and plan to retire my 35mm gear altogether for whatever camera replaces the 5D whenever Canon introduces it.

I don't mean to imply that reverting back to film is regression, as many would undoubtedly take offense. But as I've stated - I'm merely curious as to why *you* would opt to do that.

I'll just jump in, impolitely, and point out that there is a huge difference between a 35mm slr system and a high quality MF rangefinder system like a Mamiya 6. The 6 is giving you lens resolution figures that no 35mm user would apologize for... and also a much bigger frame. And best of all, it's a rangefinder

So... while I am quite cool with shooting a 35mm dslr, I also use my sixes very, very happily.

Somewhere there is a comparison of a 12mp dslr to a mamiya 7, it is quite amusing. Let's see, ah yes, here it is:

http://www.diax.nl/pages/start_mamiya_nikon_uk.html

Peopel usually have two opposite reactions to this little test:

(1) the d2x either does fairly well against medium format, especially in areas that are not full of high frequency detail; or

(2) the fairly compact 7 does amazingly well against the bulky dslr that costs many times more.

My reaction is a mix of both points of view.

iserious said:

Steve,

Sheer curiosity here. If you've been shooting digital for what I gather is a number of years I would imagine you've gotten at least somewhat accustomed to the workflow. Why would you want to revert BACK to film?

Click to expand...

I'll interrupt here as I'm doing the same thing with my 645Pro.

Really the root was seeing the prices for older film MF gear. So I figured I'd give it a go. Now I'm sticking with it because it forces a different mindset than digital. It's enjoyable to slow down; the lack of any automatic function forces me to stop & think about the photographic process again. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but some of the "problems" that the all-automatic new cameras "solve" are actually fun now. It's even improving my shooting overall--even when shooting digital. Then, of course, there's the look of film that is simply different from digital, even after getting scanned for a digital print. It's just different & another flavor for photography. Helps keep things interesting.

So after all that, I think it all boils down to one word for me: variety.

steveinspain said:

Hello !
I am new here, and newly back to film. I used film many years ago, then went digital, and am about to get a Mamiya 6 (120 film) to try out this B/W film malarky.

Click to expand...

If your maximum print size is about 12X16 you can get by with an Epson 4870 or 4990. Print quality will be about the same as what you are getting with the Canon 5D. The Epson V700 and V750 are slightly better, but cost a lot more.

However, the Mamiya 6 is potentially capable of much better results than DSLRs in the 12-16 mp range. Unfortunately, to take advantage of that potential you will need top quality scan. The LS-8000 (one one of the older Minolta medium format scanners) would be a minimum configuration IMO.

Sandy King

Thanks for the replies so far, and iserious - what a good question..!
Right, see if I can answer clearly !
I used to shoot film as a youth, never well, and always fumbling around, not knowing what or how. I then lost interest, but got a camera again when the kids came along, and got a point and shoot. Slowly I have been spending more, and shooting more, but I seem to be falling into the trap of take 5 frames when one should do. I think that film will make me slow down and think more, which has to be good for my pictures. Then, there is the quality issue. I have not seen 'in-the-flesh' a decent B/W print from a negative for a long time, but what I see via my aged flat screen monitor seems to say that film can be much better than digital. I like to be slightly different, and to try to sell the difference to others, and I like quality, even if I can't produce it. So, a film camera, which will not replace my digital, may help me in all ways - may teach me how to produce good results, and I think (hope) I will develop a love for it. I want to show myself that i can plan and execute a good high quality picture, not just get lucky by snapping away in the hope that something turns out right. I take mainly people pictures (I am a dad..) but some scenery stuff, so never really take my time, I just grab what I see.

I guess I am just repeating what Claudermilk has said. I will also promise myself to get a drum scan from one of my first pictures just to see.
Now, how do I find a drum scaning company in the UK..?
Another challenge (I won't find one close to me in Spain, but I do go back to London at times..)

Many thanks to all of you for taking the time to help yet another beginner with what must seem like such boring questions - in time I might be able to offer something in return, but that may be a way off yet!

...

steveinspain said:

Now, how do I find a drum scaning company in the UK..?
Another challenge (I won't find one close to me in Spain, but I do go back to London at times..)

Click to expand...

Try: http://www.thepointnet.com/Lenticular/lightjet/index.html

I've not used them - never produced anything worth the effort

Thanks Carl, and what a dishonest man you must be......!

OK, my next silly question.
With the expense of a decent scanner, I want to know if a better, or similar result can be (easily) obtained from a wet print process than from a digital print (ie scanning a neg then using a pc and printer). Now I realise that photoshop can work wonders, but I sense a certain purity and honesty on this forum, so wonder what you all think about that ?
I know so much depends on the skill of the operator etc, but if the information is there, then it seems that a wet print is cutting out one process, so might lead to better prints.?

steveinspain said:

OK, my next silly question.
With the expense of a decent scanner, I want to know if a better, or similar result can be (easily) obtained from a wet print process than from a digital print (ie scanning a neg then using a pc and printer). Now I realise that photoshop can work wonders, but I sense a certain purity and honesty on this forum, so wonder what you all think about that ?

Click to expand...

y

Assuming you are talking about a medium format original negative my opinion is that you will get better results scanning, correcting in Photoshop, and then printing digitally, eithre directly, or via a digital negative by contact printing wiht a wet print process.

The matter would be much more complicated if we were talking about contact printing from large format or ultra large format negatives.

Sandy King

Well, I have now managed to get me a Nikon coolscan 8000, just serviced, at a bargain price.It is still in the UK, and I hope to get it out to me in Spain in the next week or two. Seems like I got lucky. Next thing is how to use it..
Any hints or ideas about scanning resolutions or even an explanation of what it all means and why I should do certain things would be much appreciated.
Oh, and I also got a Mamiya RZ67..
Never do things by halves, I was always told...

Hi Steve,

You might wish to read my last contributions, and view the included images, in this HybridPhoto thread:

http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648&page=2

And you might also wish to check out the link Ian Mazursky pointed out there:

http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis/

It will give you some idea of scanning resolutions and results...

In addition, if you can't find a professional lab doing drum scans near you, but if they have a Imacon / Hasselblad Flextight scanner, you will be able to get top quality results too. All of the scans I showed have been made with one (but note the remarks about resolution I made!).
Some labs even allow you to do your own scanning with an Imacon (at least here in the Netherlands), contrary to drum scanning which by it's wet scanning nature requires an experienced specialized operator. I made the Imacon scans myself on a well calibrated scanner. No problem, just like a normal scanning workflow...

Marco

My website

From what I've read you want to use superfine mode with that scanner. Still waiting for my 8000 to arrive so I can't offer more help yet. I am planning on getting some wet mounting supplies after I make sure that the scanner works:
http://www.scanscience.com/

Marco - fantastic stuff - for the first time I feel like I have got something to work on..!
Many thanks for taking the time to do the work, and then for replying to me !

Steve