YAXFT (Yet another Xtol failure thread)

Vonder · Dec 3, 2014

I am somewhat dim, but the medication obscures that.

I've read about Xtol failure and have thus far ignored such chat. It always seemed to me that there was some other factor invovled, like careless storage or mixing or somesuch. And then there was the report that these Xtol failures were a thing of the past, a few defective batches from Kodak, and that the problem has been fixed.

Poppycock.

I tried to develop two rolls of Tri-X on Sunday with the last of a batch of Xtol. Had 250ml, perfect amount for a 1:1 dilution in my tank, so off I went. The Xtol had a yellow cast to it but that's not unusual when you're at the last 250ml of a 5L batch. I do not know how old it was. I don't do a lot of B&W so it was definitely months, but I had partitioned the 5L into smaller airtight jugs and only opened one jug when the previous one ran short.

Didn't matter. Horrible failure. There was maybe one frame dark enough to be seen. Two rolls, 48 pics, gone forever.

I am dim, remember? I've had similar results before. Not THIS bad, always at least somewhat usable, but this was entirely blank.

I have heard you can do a test of developers, with the leader, to see if the developer is good. Supposedly the leader will turn black, in full room light, if your developer is still good. I'm curious, has anyone tried this with "bad" Xtol and the leader still turned black? Seems to me my rolls were entirely blank, not even a true black at the leader edge...

Snapshot · Dec 3, 2014

Sorry to hear about your XTOL failure. There is nothing more frustrating than losing rolls of film due to developer issues.

NB23 · Dec 3, 2014

Look, keeping small amounts of old(ish) chemicals is never a good idea. Fresh is the magic word in the World of Film photography.

The way I do it is this way (regarding powder developers and a few others): I pile up exposed films. When I reach 18, the equivalent of a 100' Bulk Roll, which is also the equivalent of a gallon of developer needed to develop them all, I prepare a Gallon of D-76 or a solution of ilfosol-3, or XTol or DD-X and use it all up in a day.

The major benefits of this technique is that you assure yourself that all the films are developed with full consistency in a fresh developer. This also means that, if you print in a darkroom, all those films should be very close to each other in regards to tonality, exposure time and contrast.

I usually develop in 10-rolls developing tanks for ultra consistency across all my films.

Hc110 and rodinal are the only two developers I use on a film to film basis. I use all the other developers in a single day, once I mix them or once I open the bottle.

My aim is ultra consistency.

MartinP · Dec 3, 2014

Always check developer, and also always filter mixed-from-powder chemicals.

Everyone might think it's a waste of time, but a few mls of developer and an offcut of the leader in a container can sit there running the sanity-check while the rest of the kit is being set up. Better safe than sorry - and yes, I only started doing that check after a too-old self-mixed developer failed.

NB23 · Dec 3, 2014

Edit:

I always let D76 and Xtol age for a day or two before using it all up. There is definitely a benefit in this practice. A week old D76 is even better.

Back in the glory days, before digital, there was a widespread practice about mixing a left over old d76 to new for optimal results. This cycle would be go on for years.

Gerald C Koch · Dec 3, 2014

Since film is more expensive than developer the following mantra is useful. When in doubt throw it out.

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2014

Not sure what you mean by airtight in jugs, storage is very critical - the wrong materials will cause more rapid failure.

It's not an Xtol failure D76 and other developers would also fail given similar conditions.

Ian

MattKing · Dec 3, 2014

Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier stories about premature Xtol failure were about just that - premature Xtol failure.

If the mixed up developer is more than six months old, test it with a piece of scrap film before use. If it is fine, you are in "bonus" time - enjoy.

Was the 250 ml used from a partially full bottle?

Kawaiithulhu · Dec 3, 2014

My brain is acting weird today. I was reading this thread and kept repeating "If only there were some chemical test to see if the mix has gone bad," and my brain completely ignored all comments about testing with a film leader.

Then I did a double take

pentaxuser · Dec 3, 2014

To help me and the OP can I take it that we are all saying that if the leader turns black in the time that is recommended for the film by Kodak then this is an infallible test? I think we are but I think the OP needs some assurance on this.

If this were not to be the case then I can understand why, after a bad experience the OP might never want to use Xtol again which would be a pity.

I used some Xtol the other night that was 15 months old and it was as good as ever. At that age I did the leader test first and it went black

I keep my 5L in 2x3L winebags where no air can enter to replace the liquid that has been removed and yes, it now has a very pale straw look but continues to work.

pentaxuser

john_s · Dec 3, 2014

While the leader test will reveal total developer failure, it seems to me that it is not going to reveal moderately reduced activity, given that the leader has had gross exposure. I think we often experience a bit of moderately reduced dev activity without being totally aware of it, attributing the negative quality to something else, or maybe even being pleased if the slightly less development actually produces better negs in some circumstances.

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2014

MattKing said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier stories about premature Xtol failure were about just that - premature Xtol failure.

It was a packaging issue that caused the premature failure, Xtol is a robust developer.

Ian

MartinP · Dec 4, 2014

Just to note that when I look at the scrap of film I used to check developer activity I am not thinking "great, it looks grey", I'm comparing it to the density of what exposed film leader usually looks like when you get a few cm on the end of a successfully developed roll. "Comparing density" in this case simply means holding it up in front of the light in the ceiling - qualitative rather than quantitative as you might say.

fotch · Dec 4, 2014

When you stated that "I do not know how old it was" that should be your first clue that a total review of your workflow is needed. Putting the mix date on the bottle is one of the first and most basic things when first learning how to develop film. If you blame the developer when it is not at fault, you will be doomed to fail again. JMHO

karl · Dec 4, 2014

User error.

Vonder · Dec 5, 2014

karl said:
User error.

Uh, duh, are you always this useless in a conversation? I already admitted that I made the mistake. I was asking for a specific answer to a specific question.

My thanks to all who reasonably replied. I will do the leader test from now on. I like Xtol a lot and will continue to use it as long as it's available. For better or worse it's "my" developer, and I need to evolve my workflow into a better process and not repeat this disaster again.

polyglot · Dec 5, 2014

That sucks (and those who read my most recent thread on Sistan will know that I can sympathise with the loss of a large quantity of work due to probable-user-error).

For reference, Xtol is still clear when it dies. To have it go yellow, it is so incredibly past dead it's not funny. Straw-coloured D76 or HC-110 is usually fine but if you see any colour in Xtol, it's way, way too late.

Try storing your Xtol in mylar bags - they keep the oxygen out because they collapse as you use it up, and you have it on-tap. Tap water in some places (like my house) has enough iron to kill it quickly too, so using a known-good source of bottled or de-ionised water to make up the stock is a good idea. Boiling the water and then letting it cool before dissolving the powder will also drive out most of the dissolved oxygen. Never use LDPE bottles, especially accordion bottles.

Michael W · Dec 5, 2014

I've had very thin film from dead Xtol, once. Was about the last 200ml in a 2 liter container. Probably was mixed two months earlier. My guess is the amount of oxygen in the container ruined it. Still have it somewhere to test selenium intensification one day. I've also had Rodinal failure once; in that case it was also a small amount left in a bottle opened a couple of years earlier.

analoguey · Dec 5, 2014

polyglot said:
For reference, Xtol is still clear when it dies. To have it go yellow, it is so incredibly past dead it's not funny. Straw-coloured D76 or HC-110 is usually fine but if you see any colour in Xtol, it's way, way too late.

Never use LDPE bottles, especially accordion bottles.

Are yousaying there's noway to know with xtol?
And that soda/water bottles don't serve the purpose reused for storing xtol?

darkosaric · Dec 5, 2014

I have Tmax developer right now - got it by mistake instead the fixer (usually Rodinal and HC110 only for me).
When I have fresh mix - I develop films, but let's say I developed 3 films, and it is then unused for 1 month. Shall I use it or not? I don't want to waist good developer, but also I don't want to risk film developing failure.

Answer for me is simple: use this developer that you are not sure for paper developing. I am guessing same goes for Xtol: when not fresh - use is for paper developing. Contrast of papers in Tmax dev is little lower than Ilford PQ, but good results are very easy to obtain. And no risk for films.

fotch · Dec 5, 2014

Think of it like food, if its past the use date, why risk a belly ache trying to save a few pennies. Even print paper is expensive plus the time spent trying to use something that is old. JMHO

darkosaric · Dec 5, 2014

fotch said:
Think of it like food, if its past the use date, why risk a belly ache trying to save a few pennies. Even print paper is expensive plus the time spent trying to use something that is old. JMHO

True. In the whole process chemicals are cheapest part. Beside this Tmax developer that came to me unplanned - I am using fresh developer for paper, and for films I use non problematic Rodinal and HC110.

MattKing · Dec 5, 2014

analoguey said:
Are yousaying there's noway to know with xtol?
And that soda/water bottles don't serve the purpose reused for storing xtol?

With XTol, there are no visual clues that it has expired. So when you get close to 6 months, or only have a tiny amount left in a much larger bottle, you nead to use the leader test.

But the Soda/Water bottles are fine - they are not the soft and permeable LDPE.

analoguey · Dec 5, 2014

Hmmm. The new kinley or aquafina bottles seem like ldpe - don't hold shape well.

The reason I'm asking about Xtol is that I want to try using replenished Xtol -and haven't used it enough (yet) to start replenishing.

pentaxuser · Dec 5, 2014

analoguey said:
The reason I'm asking about Xtol is that I want to try using replenished Xtol -and haven't used it enough (yet) to start replenishing.

Have a read of posts by Maris or Thomas Bertilsson. Both use this and certainly in Maris' case it has lasted years

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