XTOL Stock FP4+ 120 unusual cloudy effect in grey areas

Simplicius · Jun 2, 2019

Hi, Can someone advise what they think this is.

NOTES: to try and give as much information as possible:

As you can see some areas of water where more light was have a beautiful sheen but then this mottled grey appears closer to camera. second shot mottled grey effect on horizon. There are a few obvious dust spots that are scanner legacy these are not what I mean.
Weather:
Cloudy overhead, grey solid duvet sky with low mist = Irish summer
Camera & Film:
Minolta Autocord TLR on a Tripod. long exposures half a second at f/16
Ilford FP4+ 120 rollfilm. EXP 2015 but kept in a fridge since purchase.
Development:
All Chemicals were brand new, freshly bought that week, mixed two days before using distilled water as I am in a hard water zone. XTOL was filtered after mixing using coffee filters. Stored in brown glass chemistry bottles.
Patterson Tanks and reels all cleaned well in advance.
3 rolls of 120 at once in the highest type of Paterson Tank: Other two rolls in same tank came out fine without this issue ( light was better when these were shot)
Dev Sequence:
Prewashed,
Then left in water to reach dev temp, 3 minutes.
XTOL Stock 20C: 8 minutes, 5'' Agitation every minute = 3 turns, two sharp bangs at end then tapping with coin further 20" to ensure air bubbles driven off.
Stop bath
5 minutes in Fresh Ilford Rapid Fixer
15 minutes wash under runnning tap water 20 C
Final rinse with distilled water and wetting agent.
brand new squeegee one light run and hung to dry.

eatfrog · Jun 2, 2019

looks like backing paper issue. put it in room temperature for a few hours before you open the packaging. otherwise condensation can make it stick to the emulsion slightly, and then you get stuff like this.

Simplicius · Jun 2, 2019

eatfrog said:
looks like backing paper issue. put it in room temperature for a few hours before you open the packaging. otherwise condensation can make it stick to the emulsion slightly, and then you get stuff like this.

I agree this is a strong possibility but the film was out of the fridge 7C for 2 days at room temperature before opening.

NB23 · Jun 2, 2019

A prewash is a bad idea.

Sounds silly and so nitpicky, but it is very important not to prewash.

A Prewash washes away the agents that make the developer penetration quick and uniform, thus starting a UNIFORM development RIGHT away.

By prewashing, you fill the film with water and then, when you pour the developer in the tank, there is a process of diffusion that takes place unevenly. Saturated with water, it has to make place for the developer.

Think of a sponge filled with beets juice that has to make place for water. Watch it go clear in running water, without squeezing it. It’s going to take a while.

Same for film. Think of it as a sponge and all will be clear.

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2019

Here's just what you do not want to hear but I cannot see what is wrong in either shot
NB23 While I understand the on-going and seemingly never ending issue over pre-wash or not to pre-wash, are you saying that a pre-wash has caused the mottling which I have to admit not being able to see?

pentaxuser

NB23 · Jun 2, 2019

Yes,

pentaxuser said:
Here's just what you do not want to hear but I cannot see what is wrong in either shot
NB23 While I understand the on-going and seemingly never ending issue over pre-wash or not to pre-wash, are you saying that a pre-wash has caused the mottling which I have to admit not being able to see?

pentaxuser

Yes, because that’s exactly why it is not recomended to prewash.

I don’t see it either, but that’s only a scan. Let me tell you, even the slightet mottling is a pita when you are printing. And this will always show more on medium and large format.

Just don’t prewash. Filn Manufacturers have worked in great depth in order to perfect the film technology. The films are formulated to assimilate developer quickly and evenly throughout. A prewash kills it.

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Can you see this effect on the negatives themselves?
I'm not sure I can see it in the small scans you have uploaded - try re-scanning them rotated to upside down and upload larger versions - closer to 800 pixels on each. If the effect moves when the scan is done on the rotated negative, you will know that the scanning process is at least part of the process.
By the way, I consistently use a pre-wash, without problem.

NB23 · Jun 2, 2019

Mattking,

I have a question: why do you consistently use a prewash? What do you think it does?
I know people prewash to get rid of the tmax pink, but that’s simply an obsessive-compulsive disorder. Prewashing a tmax film in no way helps washing the pink off the film.

Some people prewash because they think it will even out the developer pour, but that’s not the case.

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2019

Please post negative.
I prewash black & white and color negative film, except for Kodak Tri-X developed in XTOL in a Jobo processor. and I have had no problems.
Your film had plenty of time to come to room temperature. There should be not problem as long as the foil or 35mm plastic can has not been opened.

Simplicius · Jun 2, 2019

Thanks for the information so far, I will reverse scan as suggested, but it will have to be tomorrow. here is a screen grab of one of the above shot showing the misty horizon with lots of whiter dots giving a mottled effect. the bright white dots, ignore this is simply dust, I am referring to the general grey areas where a lighter white mottling appears.

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2019

So the white dots which I can now see in this magnified scan are in the negative and can be seen with a high magnification loupe?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2019

That negative starts telling the story, especially since the photograph does not seem to be snowing.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 2, 2019

Is it a backing paper issue?

pentaxuser · Jun 3, 2019

I take it that this is the first time this has happened or has there been any problems of this nature with any other rolls? If so what were they, how were they stored and when did those rolls expire?

Just an attempt on my part to eliminate what the problem is and is not to see if that narrows down the "suspects"

pentaxuser

koraks · Jun 3, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Is it a backing paper issue?

Yes, my money is on that option as well. Given the film's age, somewhere along it's 5+ year lifetime it has most likely seen some poor storage conditions.

Simplicius · Jun 4, 2019

Hi all , Thanks for the advice from everyone. I finally got to the cause. After reverse scanning, it appeared the issue was on the negative. On a light table with a loupe, the marking is apparent as a strip across nearly all the negs from that roll. but the ones highlighted are the worst. I checked the two other rolls I developed the same day and the issue is not present. This morning I just checked a further 3 rolls from the same batch of FP4 I bought, this I developed 24 hours ago and no issues present.

I can only surmise that it is poor housekeeping on my part, that I came across a stray and lots older roll of FP4 somewhere and tossed it into the same bag in the fridge.

Thanks for the help in getting to the reason.

Anthony

Simplicius · Jun 4, 2019

pentaxuser said:
I take it that this is the first time this has happened or has there been any problems of this nature with any other rolls? If so what were they, how were they stored and when did those rolls expire?

Just an attempt on my part to eliminate what the problem is and is not to see if that narrows down the "suspects"

pentaxuser

Rolls expired 2015 purchased by me in 2010/11 and stored, with the outer cardboard package unopened, in plastic food boxes or sealed bags in the fridge ( not freezer) at around 5 C since then. .. I would have assumed this was sufficient and all other rolls are ok from this batch, i can only guess this was a rogue roll I added from elsewhere and forgot.

MattKing · Jun 4, 2019

Have you tried re-fixing and re-washing the problem negatives? Your description of "a strip across nearly all the negs from that roll" sounds a bit like incomplete fixing.

ooze · Jun 4, 2019

I strongly suggest you write to Harman Technical Service. I had similar problems, wrote to them and had a very helpful correspondence with them.

Simplicius · Jun 5, 2019

MattKing said:
Have you tried re-fixing and re-washing the problem negatives? Your description of "a strip across nearly all the negs from that roll" sounds a bit like incomplete fixing.

I will give this a go, although I suspect the probability is very low as the fixer was brand new from the store, in date and mixed only the day before stored in airtight bottles, full to top.but next batch I will dip and dunk one of the negs at end of my night's developing and see if it makes a difference.

ic-racer · Jun 6, 2019

Try some fresh film.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 6, 2019

ic-racer said:
Try some fresh film.

That's what I would do. Pretty sure fixing will do nothing. Backing paper strikes again.

bunip · Jun 9, 2019

I had this some problem yesterday when developed 3 hp5 120 rolls in a jobo tank and 3+3+3 fp4 120 rolls in other three jobo tanks. the hp5 were ok, all fp4 was ruined the same way. all film purchased fresh last year from photoimpex and stored at +5 Celsius degees for some months, then removed for holidays and shot weeks or months after being removed from fridge. X-tol replenished.

Tom Kershaw · Jun 9, 2019

I've not had this problem so far with any of my most recent July 2021 dated Delta 100, which I'm keeping at room temperature, and plan to use up before ordering additional supplies. I'm fairly sure we didn't suffer as many backing paper related problems in the past...

bunip · Jun 9, 2019

Her some examples, cropped from 120 negatives

XTOL Stock FP4+ 120 unusual cloudy effect in grey areas

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