XTOL + Rodinal vs. Rodinal Only

omarmagdi · Jun 24, 2015

Hello everyone.

I am so interested into getting some XTOL and mix it with Rodinal, unfortunately nobody in Egypt sells XTOL anymore, so I'll need to order that 5 liter pack from the US or something, and that would cost me around $30 per pack and of course that's a lot to spend on a developer than I am not so sure I will be using regularly.

But to whoever used this combination.
What is better in terms of Contrast, Whites and most important Sharpness and Resolution?

Is the mix better than Rodinal alone when it come to any if not all?

I quite like the grain of Rodinal (Most of the times) also how does the grain change there? is it drastically softer?

And how about Rodinal's Sharpness?

I use TRI-X 400 box speed, I rarely push or pull my film.

Tell me your thoughts!
Thanks!

Hilo · Jun 24, 2015

I have used Rodinal since 1978. Never pushed any film, only used it 1 plus 25. Using Ilford FP4, Kodak Tri X and Kodak Tmax 400. I print on fiber papers, often 50X60cm (20X24) and I use those prints to make my living. In my opinion there is no need to experiment. It is a perfect developer. Just learn to develop well, gentle but decisive moving the tank is most important. The rest is important too, but there you just need to follow instructions.

Experiment with something else, not with developing film.

darkosaric · Jun 24, 2015

Mixing developers is not a good idea - except if you want to have untested and surprise elements. It is not documented well, and in general I would do this only when I want to play.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 24, 2015

darkosaric said:
Mixing developers is not a good idea - except if you want to have untested and surprise elements. It is not documented well, and in general I would do this only when I want to play.

+1

People expect that by mixing developers you will get the best of both, what you might get is the worst of both. In this case Xtol and Rodinal work on different principles so the idea of mixing them is not a good one.

Rhodes · Jun 24, 2015

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html
I did a few rolls of HP5+ in XTOL plus Rodinal, here one shot of one of those rolls!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/16416646@N05/15305437741/in/datetaken/

NB23 · Jun 24, 2015

"Adding a dash of rodinal for added sharpness"
"Stand development to keep grain in check" as if agitation was rubbing the grain and causing grain
"I Mix developers so i get xtol's true speed and D76's legendary tonality"
"Kodak are stupid, they give us products that are subpar. I know best! I'll add a bit of ilfosol to D-76. This is what Koudelka did".

Can we stop the bs?

Developers work at different PH. Mixing two deveolopers is the worst thing one can do, especially if one doesn't understand the basics. You're mixing half on one developer and half of another and sibce they work at different ph both are weakened. The Koudelka look, eh?

The basic's basics are even simpler: follow the manufacturer's instructions.

Sirius Glass · Jun 24, 2015

The responses about reflect what I have learned. Use one developer or the other but not mixed together. i greatly prefer XTOL replenished for the finer grain, better tonality and it lasts longer. XTOL supposed to be a boost to the ISO, but I have never noticed it.

pentaxuser · Jun 24, 2015

Rhodes said:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html
I did a few rolls of HP5+ in XTOL plus Rodinal, here one shot of one of those rolls!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/16416646@N05/15305437741/in/datetaken/

I am confused. The flickr link takes me to a shot with HP5+ and Kodak Tmax 100???. I had a look at a few more shots but couldn't find HP5+ in Xtol plus Rodinal

The Unblinkingeye articles on Rodinal mentions one contribution from a Sam Elkind but he provided no comparative evidence such as two shots, one with Xtol and the other with Xtol and Rodinal to demonstrate the improvement

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Jun 24, 2015

pentaxuser said:
The Unblinkingeye articles on Rodinal mentions one contribution from a Sam Elkind but he provided no comparative evidence such as two shots, one with Xtol and the other with Xtol and Rodinal to demonstrate the improvement

Let's hear it for unsubstantiated results.

mooseontheloose · Jun 24, 2015

XTOL is a fantastic developer well worth using on its own (as it is meant to be).

That being said, I did experiment with using XTOl + Rodinal as per this link and the link listed above. It was not controlled testing, but I did do it with two films that I know well, HP5+ and Acros, and the results were different than what I normally get conventionally. As it was long stand development I ended up with a little base fog on the HP5+ negatives and some solarization on some very contrasty images. Images shot in low light/low contrast situations had a beautiful tonality though. I'll try and see if I can find those negs tonight when I get home and scan a few of them to post here.

Paul Howell · Jun 24, 2015

omarmagdi said:
Hello everyone.

I am so interested into getting some XTOL and mix it with Rodinal, unfortunately nobody in Egypt sells XTOL anymore, so I'll need to order that 5 liter pack from the US or something, and that would cost me around $30 per pack and of course that's a lot to spend on a developer than I am not so sure I will be using regularly.

Although I would not recommend mixing the 2, if you want to experiment you can buy a liter of Foma version of Xtol rather than 5 liters of Kodak.

bdial · Jun 24, 2015

I did a roll or two using Xtol and Rodinal in a two-bath fashion. That is, I processed first in Xtol, then in some dilute Rodinal for maybe half the normal time for the dilution.
The negatives had boosted contrast, but no other effect that was particularly memorable. It was a pretty casual test, and I've not repeated it.

Rhodes · Jun 24, 2015

pentaxuser said:
I am confused. The flickr link takes me to a shot with HP5+ and Kodak Tmax 100???. I had a look at a few more shots but couldn't find HP5+ in Xtol plus Rodinal
pentaxuser

Yes, I sandwich both films together and shot it!
I just said the films I used in that event, HP5+ and Tmax100. That photo was from one of the hp5+ rolls and I developed with xtol 1:1 plus 2ml of rodinal.

Pinecreekboy · Jun 24, 2015

There's a Flickr group devoted to this: https://www.flickr.com/groups/819042@N23/ I tried it and was intrigued with the tonality in low contrast situations. I intend to experiment further when I get the time.

omarmagdi · Jun 25, 2015

NB23 said:
"Adding a dash of rodinal for added sharpness"
"Stand development to keep grain in check" as if agitation was rubbing the grain and causing grain
"I Mix developers so i get xtol's true speed and D76's legendary tonality"
"Kodak are stupid, they give us products that are subpar. I know best! I'll add a bit of ilfosol to D-76. This is what Koudelka did".

Can we stop the bs?

Developers work at different PH. Mixing two deveolopers is the worst thing one can do, especially if one doesn't understand the basics. You're mixing half on one developer and half of another and sibce they work at different ph both are weakened. The Koudelka look, eh?

The basic's basics are even simpler: follow the manufacturer's instructions.

You're so mad about something which is the basis of photography man.
Photography itself is an experiment, it started with an experiment and still is an experimentation media.

I think if everyone stuck to any "instructions" we wouldn't have people like William Klein, Cartier Bresson, The Capas and many many others.

I already know developers work different, and also I know that some developers can be worked in ways that the manufacturer wouldn't like you to do, for revenue and brand names, and a lot more.

So, I guess you're getting mad about what you are here for.

NB23 · Jun 25, 2015

I think if everyone stuck to any "instructions" we wouldn't have people like William Klein, Cartier Bresson, The Capas and many many others.

The chemists have tried and tested all the combos for us. It's all been tested. What makes you think otherwise?

I'm not sure why you think I'm "mad" or why is HCB even mentioned here.

Xmas · Jun 25, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
+1

People expect that by mixing developers you will get the best of both, what you might get is the worst of both. In this case Xtol and Rodinal work on different principles so the idea of mixing them is not a good one.

HiGerald

What you will get is some of the worst features of both and may also get bad interactions?
But if they need to try alchemy...

Noel

Sirius Glass · Jun 25, 2015

NB23 said:
The chemists have tried and tested all the combos for us. It's all been tested. What makes you think otherwise?

I'm not sure why you think I'm "mad" or why is HCB even mentioned here.

You are right the chemists are and will always be smarter than us on the subject for of developers and their use.

HCB did neither his own developing nor his own printing. He fits in this discussion about as much as a brick being thrown through the window.

Note: No bricks were thrown, tossed, damaged or destroyed in the writing of this post.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 25, 2015

Xmas said:
HiGerald

What you will get is some of the worst features of both and may also get bad interactions?
But if they need to try alchemy...

Noel

I was reminded of two quotes from the 1949 film A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. When asked where all the knights are we are told, "the boys went grailing." In another Merlin has stumbled on the formula for gun powder. After one expressive explosion we are told by Merlin that "the next time I will leave out the frog." People on APUG with little knowledge of developers constantly searching for the holy grail of developers.

Alan Johnson · Jun 25, 2015

The original article on this topic may also have upset the technical non-conformity editor and got deleted:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Xmas · Jun 25, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I was reminded of two quotes from the 1949 film A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. When asked where all the knights are we are told, "the boys went grailing." In another Merlin has stumbled on the formula for gun powder. After one expressive explosion we are told by Merlin that "the next time I will leave out the frog." People on APUG with little knowledge of developers constantly searching for the holy grail of developers.

Yes I recall the film.
But the alchemists wanted to create gold.
The physicists bombarded nuclei with no effect early 20th century until a theorist suggested neutrons and Lise explained
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner

Then we needed POTA

sselkind · Jun 26, 2015

It is interesting to read this discussion now, more than 15 years after I did the experiments with Xtol and Rodinal. Personally, I liked the results I got back then. But in all honesty I moved on long ago to good old D76 1+1, and now to PMK. That combination Xtol/Rodinal experiment was interesting, but done more from blind desperation than knowledge of chemistry. I just wasn't then getting the results I wanted at the time, and gave the mixture a try.

--Sam Elkind

pentaxuser · Jun 26, 2015

Sam, nice of you to give us your review of the experiment and subsequent moves after all these years. I know what my conclusion is from your experiment. Others will have to come to their own conclusions

Thanks

pentaxuser

MartinP · Jun 26, 2015

For sharp TriX the OP could always try ID11 (functionally the same as D76) at 1+3, to reduce the solvent effect.

As already mentioned, Foma make Xtol in one litre packages so that might help the OP.

Really though, mixing in 2,5ml per litre of virgin* unicorn blood is about the only thing that works.

*Difficult to find, as they are even better at hiding than the deflowered unicorns are.

XTOL + Rodinal vs. Rodinal Only

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