XTOL replenished, JOBO... I need help!

Dani · Apr 12, 2020

I've been wanting to try XTOL replenished for a long time but there's something that I don't quite understand. All the math works great if you use Paterson or similar tanks for inversion. However, if I use the JOBO and say I want to develop one roll of 35mm then I'd use a tank that needs 140ml of chemistry. Great, I can do that but then when I want to replenish is when I'm running into questions... do I still pour 70ml of fresh stock into my working bottle? That's almost half of the 140ml used to develop. That seems excessive when you can use a Paterson tank and develop that same roll with 300ml.

Another example, I want to develop 1 roll of 120 in a 1520 tank, so that's 240ml. Do I still need pour those 70ml? What if I use 2 rolls of 120 in that same tank? I still can develop those 2 rolls with 240ml... so do I pour 140ml of fresh stock to my working solution?

I've been researching and reading and the only person I've read that gave a number said he uses 30ml per roll of 36exp as the replenisher rate.

Also, I know there's people that say nope, don't use replenisher XTOL with the JOBO because of aeration and oxidation, use 1:1 instead. Well I can't if I use the 140ml tank for one roll of 35mm or two rolls of 120 using 240ml in the other tank. But other people use the JOBO and with replenisher and say it works great.

I'm confused and I'd greatly appreciate some help and experiences.

So far what I've done is that I've used stock and reuse (extend time) following the tech sheet.

Thank you!

Tom Kershaw · Apr 12, 2020

I use 75ml per film as a replenishment rate with Jobo processing. example: pour 240ml out of your working solution container into the Jobo cylinder, process the film, at the end add 70/75ml fresh developer to your 'working' container + 170ml of the 240ml solution you have just used to process a roll of film.

Dani · Apr 12, 2020

Thank you! It was just that the numbers didn’t seem to add up in my head. I’m about to develop 6 rolls of 120 with 570ml of developer, if I was to do the replenishment rate I’d have to use 420ml of stock in my working solution and only reuse 150ml. That just seems strange to me.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
I've been wanting to try XTOL replenished for a long time but there's something that I don't quite understand. All the math works great if you use Paterson or similar tanks for inversion. However, if I use the JOBO and say I want to develop one roll of 35mm then I'd use a tank that needs 140ml of chemistry. Great, I can do that but then when I want to replenish is when I'm running into questions... do I still pour 70ml of fresh stock into my working bottle? That's almost half of the 140ml used to develop. That seems excessive when you can use a Paterson tank and develop that same roll with 300ml.

Another example, I want to develop 1 roll of 120 in a 1520 tank, so that's 240ml. Do I still need pour those 70ml? What if I use 2 rolls of 120 in that same tank? I still can develop those 2 rolls with 240ml... so do I pour 140ml of fresh stock to my working solution?

I've been researching and reading and the only person I've read that gave a number said he uses 30ml per roll of 36exp as the replenisher rate.

Also, I know there's people that say nope, don't use replenisher XTOL with the JOBO because of aeration and oxidation, use 1:1 instead. Well I can't if I use the 140ml tank for one roll of 35mm or two rolls of 120 using 240ml in the other tank. But other people use the JOBO and with replenisher and say it works great.

I'm confused and I'd greatly appreciate some help and experiences.

So far what I've done is that I've used stock and reuse (extend time) following the tech sheet.

Thank you!

I use replenished xtol with a jobo in a film processing lab environment. No matter what volume of developer you use in the tank, you replenish with 70ml per 135-36 or 120 roll. 135-24 is 56ml per roll.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
Thank you! It was just that the numbers didn’t seem to add up in my head. I’m about to develop 6 rolls of 120 with 570ml of developer, if I was to do the replenishment rate I’d have to use 420ml of stock in my working solution and only reuse 150ml. That just seems strange to me.

you should have at least 100ml of xtol per roll of film in the developing tank for best results, so if you’re doing 6 rolls, put 600ml in the tank.

Dani · Apr 12, 2020

Great! That answer my question. Thank you both so much!

I’ll put 600ml. I’ve been doing 570ml for quite some time now but better safe than sorry.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
Great! That answer my question. Thank you both so much!

I’ll put 600ml. I’ve been doing 570ml for quite some time now but better safe than sorry.

the 570ml that the tank designates is the minimum amount of solution you need to cover the film. The minimum amount you need for the developer you’re using is a different amount and will vary depending on the developer used. In this case, with xtol, the minimum amount of developer per roll of film is 100ml. Other developers will have different amounts.

with replenished Xtol in my jobo, I generally will run 600ml with 3 rolls of film. I rarely put the full 5 135 or 6 120 rolls unless I’m super busy and need the added throughput.

MattKing · Apr 12, 2020

I'm thinking that your working solution may be too small for the volume of developer you are using.
Or alternatively, you are thinking of the replenisher as replenishing the recently used working solution, when it is better to think of the replenisher and the recently used working solution as re-seasoning the balance in the working solution storage container.
What size is your storage container? If it is less than 1.5 litres, you may have trouble with consistency.
I assume you understand that you should be adding the replenisher to the container while you are doing the development (or at least before you add the used developer back).
Then after the development, you should use the recently used developer to just top up that container - the rest should be discarded.
If you develop six rolls in just 600 ml, when you are finished the developer used will both be nearly completely exhausted and will contain high concentrations of the bromides and other development byproducts that are required to keep the working solution seasoned. For that reason, it makes sense that pouring just 6 x 30 ml = 180 ml of that heavily used developer back into the storage container will (along with 420 ml of the replenisher) be enough to both maintain activity and keep seasoned the storage container of working solution.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 12, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm thinking that your working solution may be too small for the volume of developer you are using.
Or alternatively, you are thinking of the replenisher as replenishing the recently used working solution, when it is better to think of the replenisher and the recently used working solution as re-seasoning the balance in the working solution storage container.
What size is your storage container? If it is less than 1.5 litres, you may have trouble with consistency.
I assume you understand that you should be adding the replenisher to the container while you are doing the development (or at least before you add the used developer back).
Then after the development, you should use the recently used developer to just top up that container - the rest should be discarded.
If you develop six rolls in just 600 ml, when you are finished the developer used will both be nearly completely exhausted and will contain high concentrations of the bromides and other development byproducts that are required to keep the working solution seasoned. For that reason, it makes sense that pouring just 6 x 30 ml = 180 ml of that heavily used developer back into the storage container will (along with 420 ml of the replenisher) be enough to both maintain activity and keep seasoned the storage container of working solution.

I used to run a 1 liter bottle. That’s fine if your usage is light, but a while back I switched to a 2.5 liter bottle and am considering going to a 5 liter bottle just so I can draw more off and have it staged and ready to go without running out working solution. At 600ml per run, I can only have 3 or 4 runs staged and ready to go with a 2.5 liter bottle.

Sirius Glass · Apr 12, 2020

REPLENISHMENT MADE EASY:
I use a 1 liter bottle for the working XTOL and for the fresh [replenishing XTOL].
Pour the working XTOL into the developing tank and start the developing process.
Pour the 70 ml fresh [replenishing XTOL]*number of film rolls into the working XTOL bottle.
Return the XTOL from the developing tank into the working XTOL bottle filling to the top and discard the excess. Squeeze out any air and seal tightly.

ic-racer · Apr 12, 2020

Try T-max developer and you won't have these problems. Works well with Jobo & B&W.

Tom Kershaw · Apr 12, 2020

ic-racer said:
Try T-max developer and you won't have these problems. Works well with Jobo & B&W.

T-Max developer is a good option, I've found it gives similar results to Microphen / ID-68, although the ILFORD option of DD-X doesn't come with a warning re use with sheet film, unlike the Kodak developer. I've had very good results with Tetenal Ultrafin Plus, but this has now been discontinued and I've not tried the replacement.

MattKing · Apr 12, 2020

ic-racer said:
Try T-max developer and you won't have these problems. Works well with Jobo & B&W.

I'm not sure that T-Max RS (the version designed for a replenishment regime) is still being manufactured.
Their is no SKU for it on the Kodak Alaris 2019 updated list of SKUs:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sit..._Chemical_CATALOG_ITEM_NUMBER_UPDATE_2019.pdf

ic-racer · Apr 12, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm not sure that T-Max RS (the version designed for a replenishment regime) is still being manufactured.
Their is no SKU for it on the Kodak Alaris 2019 updated list of SKUs:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sit..._Chemical_CATALOG_ITEM_NUMBER_UPDATE_2019.pdf

Avoid "these problems" including replenish. The Tmax non-RS can be used economically 1:4 as one-shot with the appropriate volume and temp for Jobo roller processing. The liquid lasts a long time in the undiluted bottle.

MattKing · Apr 12, 2020

ic-racer said:
Avoid "these problems" including replenish. The Tmax non-RS can be used economically 1:4 as one-shot with the appropriate volume and temp for Jobo roller processing. The liquid lasts a long time in the undiluted bottle.

Unfortunately, non-RS T-Max developer is not recommended for sheet film, due to issues with dichroic fog.

Dani · Apr 12, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm thinking that your working solution may be too small for the volume of developer you are using.
Or alternatively, you are thinking of the replenisher as replenishing the recently used working solution, when it is better to think of the replenisher and the recently used working solution as re-seasoning the balance in the working solution storage container.
What size is your storage container? If it is less than 1.5 litres, you may have trouble with consistency.
I assume you understand that you should be adding the replenisher to the container while you are doing the development (or at least before you add the used developer back).
Then after the development, you should use the recently used developer to just top up that container - the rest should be discarded.
If you develop six rolls in just 600 ml, when you are finished the developer used will both be nearly completely exhausted and will contain high concentrations of the bromides and other development byproducts that are required to keep the working solution seasoned. For that reason, it makes sense that pouring just 6 x 30 ml = 180 ml of that heavily used developer back into the storage container will (along with 420 ml of the replenisher) be enough to both maintain activity and keep seasoned the storage container of working solution.

I haven't decided yet the size of my storage container. I developed 3 rolls with 470ml and stored that. I'm thinking now that in order to season the developer I should use hand inversions instead of the JOBO. That way my working solution won't be as depleted as it would with rotation.
I guess I'll start with a 1L bottle. Although I rarely use more than 600ml per run with the JOBO.

That last part about the developer being completely exhausted after 6 rolls in just 600ml makes completely sense now. I didn't think think of that. I was thinking more along the lines that you can reuse fresh stock developer. Not that I made it work extra.

Sirius Glass said:
REPLENISHMENT MADE EASY:
I use a 1 liter bottle for the working XTOL and for the fresh [replenishing XTOL].
Pour the working XTOL into the developing tank and start the developing process.
Pour the 70 ml fresh [replenishing XTOL]*number of film rolls into the working XTOL bottle.
Return the XTOL from the developing tank into the working XTOL bottle filling to the top and discard the excess. Squeeze out any air and seal tightly.

Yes, that was what I read before and was planning on doing, thank you!

ic-racer said:
Try T-max developer and you won't have these problems. Works well with Jobo & B&W.

I'm going to look into it, 1:4 sounds very interesting.

Thank you all!

Maris · Apr 12, 2020

It is certainly permissible to use an Xtol replenishment rate greater than 70ml per film.

Because I do a lot of open tray development of sheet film my Xtol encounters more aerial oxidation than ordinary tank inversion methods. Back in 2007 when I started my present working stock of 1.6 litres I used the recommended replenishment rate of 70ml per film and noted that developer activity stabilized at a bit over half the initial activity.

By upping the replenishment rate to 90ml per film I get consistently higher activity and shorter developing times; nice if working for hours in pitch blackness gets boring. Typically I tray develop a 8x10 sheet of Tmax 100 for 11minutes 15 seconds at 68F for N normal contrast.

The higher replenishment rate costs more money but it still comes down to about 30 cents per sheet.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
I haven't decided yet the size of my storage container. I developed 3 rolls with 470ml and stored that. I'm thinking now that in order to season the developer I should use hand inversions instead of the JOBO. That way my working solution won't be as depleted as it would with rotation.
I guess I'll start with a 1L bottle. Although I rarely use more than 600ml per run with the JOBO.

That last part about the developer being completely exhausted after 6 rolls in just 600ml makes completely sense now. I didn't think think of that. I was thinking more along the lines that you can reuse fresh stock developer. Not that I made it work extra.

Yes, that was what I read before and was planning on doing, thank you!

I'm going to look into it, 1:4 sounds very interesting.

Thank you all!

if you start with a liter bottle, I’d just start by filling it with stock xtol, then pour out 600ml into your developing tank and run it as fresh. Then if developing 6 rolls in that batch, pour 420ml of fresh stock into the working solution tank, then top it off with the used xtol (180ml). Because your working solution is so small, you’ll be just about at steady state with that. Do a second batch, and you most certainly will be. With a small tank it doesn’t take much to season it.

MattKing · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
I guess I'll start with a 1L bottle. Although I rarely use more than 600ml per run with the JOBO.

If you are using 600 ml at a time on a regular basis, I definitely wouldn't limit yourself to a 1 litre bottle.
Factors like oxidation and variations between rolls create a need to have a higher volume in your working strength container - otherwise it will be difficult to maintain consistency.
I consider the 1.5 litre bottle I use to store my working developer to be a minimum for me - the most I ever develop is 4 rolls of 120 at a time (in a Paterson tank with two rolls on each reel).
Once you get past your first 5 litre bag, it doesn't cost any more to keep 1.5 litres working than it does to keep 1 litre working.

Sirius Glass · Apr 12, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
REPLENISHMENT MADE EASY:
I use a 1 liter bottle for the working XTOL and for the fresh [replenishing XTOL].
Pour the working XTOL into the developing tank and start the developing process.
Pour the 70 ml fresh [replenishing XTOL]*number of film rolls into the working XTOL bottle.
Return the XTOL from the developing tank into the working XTOL bottle filling to the top and discard the excess. Squeeze out any air and seal tightly.

I usually use 250 ml in my Jobo 1500 tanks and 500 ml Jobo Expert Drums.

Dani · Apr 12, 2020

I’ll need to find a 1.5L bottle. I have a lot of 1L amber ones but I can see how it’d be necessary to have a larger working solution. The rolls I develop tend to be different stocks, some overexposed, some under.
I’m excited and thankful because now I have a plan! This morning it was all a mental chaos, but not anymore.

MattKing · Apr 12, 2020

Dani said:
I’ll need to find a 1.5L bottle. I have a lot of 1L amber ones but I can see how it’d be necessary to have a larger working solution. The rolls I develop tend to be different stocks, some overexposed, some under.
I’m excited and thankful because now I have a plan! This morning it was all a mental chaos, but not anymore.

48 ounces works too
I've had good results using juice containers designed for the refrigerator - look for something with a wide mouth, a good sealing lid and a shape that makes it easy to hold the container without slipping.

ic-racer · Apr 13, 2020

MattKing said:
Unfortunately, non-RS T-Max developer is not recommended for sheet film, due to issues with dichroic fog.

How did this spoil you prints? Do you have an example, I'm curious.

Tom Kershaw · Apr 13, 2020

ic-racer said:
How did this spoil you prints? Do you have an example, I'm curious.

I've not tried T-Max developer with sheet film but this has always been the advice.

MattKing · Apr 13, 2020

John Nanian (jnantz) is one person I know of who had all sorts of problems trying to use T-Max developer with sheet film.

XTOL replenished, JOBO... I need help!

Dani

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