Xtol & Pre-soak

138S · Aug 5, 2020

Bormental said:
Bergger data sheet begins with a PRE-SOAKING section where it says "it is highly recommended to presoak in water for at least one minute".

IIRC, Bergger sells film that is outsourced, probably they have not the technology to make film that requires no pre-soaking. Major photo manufacturers make "pre-soaking free" products since many decades ago, industrial processors and minilabs benefit from that feature, IIRC.

But, yes... it is true that some relatively exotic films may stil benefit from pre-soaking, while major manufacturers (Kodak-Fuji-Ilford-Agfa) developed the technology to not require pre-soaking long ago: very thin emulsions loaded with surfactants, and a very consistent emulsion coating.

mshchem · Aug 5, 2020

You know that for every roll of film in the last 50 years that has been presoaked, there's probably been a million that haven't. C-41 machines don't waste the time, I doubt dip and dunk machines do.

Seriously my only rationale for a pre rinse was to make sure I was at the right temperature. Especially with the Jobo, where the solution goes through the unheated lift into a tank that has reels and film that could only be reliably brought to 38°C in a lab mechanical convection oven by pre-heating for an hour.

There's no need to pre-rinse pre XTOL. But I've done it for years, mostly for temperature concerns.

138S · Aug 5, 2020

mshchem said:
You know that for every roll of film in the last 50 years that has been presoaked, there's probably been a million that haven't. C-41 machines don't waste the time, I doubt dip and dunk machines do.

Seriously my only rationale for a pre rinse was to make sure I was at the right temperature. Especially with the Jobo, where the solution goes through the unheated lift into a tank that has reels and film that could only be reliably brought to 38°C in a lab mechanical convection oven by pre-heating for an hour.

There's no need to pre-rinse pre XTOL. But I've done it for years, mostly for temperature concerns.

I totally agree.

Anyway the pre-soak need is more from the film than from the developer. Ansel Adams recommended pre-soaking, but this was for the films made 50 to 90 years ago, probably it was a good recommendation by then.

Alan9940 · Aug 5, 2020

Thank you all for the responses. So far, I've only processed FP-4+ in a tank and did not pre-wash. But, when processing 8x10 on my Jobo I always do a pre-wash and I was concerned about doing this with Xtol. Doesn't sound like there's any particular reason not to. And, btw, I've processed hundreds of sheets of Foma 100 and even with a 5 min pre-wash, followed by all the subsequent steps thereafter, my final wash always has a very slight blue tinge. No clue what Foma uses, but it's tough stuff!

NB23 · Aug 6, 2020

mshchem said:
I pre-wash. I've been using XTOL since it came out. Replenished, diluted 1+1 one shot, stock one shot in a Jobo etc. Every now and then when I feel adventurous, I skip the pre-wet and follow the instructions.
I have a real thing for pre-wash with color film, get rid of the pink dye.

Just FYI, I am not sure where the Pope would stand on this, my suspicion is the Francis would say "whatever floats your boat" . Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI would forbid pre-wash, or pretty much anything pre. .

mshchem · Aug 6, 2020

Alan9940 said:
Thank you all for the responses. So far, I've only processed FP-4+ in a tank and did not pre-wash. But, when processing 8x10 on my Jobo I always do a pre-wash and I was concerned about doing this with Xtol. Doesn't sound like there's any particular reason not to. And, btw, I've processed hundreds of sheets of Foma 100 and even with a 5 min pre-wash, followed by all the subsequent steps thereafter, my final wash always has a very slight blue tinge. No clue what Foma uses, but it's tough stuff!

Use Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for 5 minutes after fixing on the Jobo. Residual dye drives me crazy, this is the only thing that gets rid of the damn purple in Tmax films for me. The slightly purple negatives are supposed to print fine, but can't stand it.
I love Foma paper, but never have tried their film. Now I'm going to challenge myself to conquering the blue! .

138S · Aug 6, 2020

mshchem said:
Residual dye drives me crazy

This is my procedure:

The pink dye is not well removed in acidic liquid. A neutral or alkaline fixer does a faster job than acidic one to remove the pink.

We should not extent too much the fixing to remove the pink stain, as it can happen some overfixing. It can be removed later by plain water, but if water is a bit acidic then we also can add 1/2 teaspoon of soda per 1L of water to make it alkaline, later we should wash with plain water to not leave soda in the negative, and of course an additional final rinse in distilled water (can be reused) with a mini dose of photoflo is to prevent drying marks in case our water is a bit hard.

A bit of soda saves a lot of hypo...

Tom Kershaw · Aug 6, 2020

mshchem said:
Residual dye drives me crazy, this is the only thing that gets rid of the damn purple in Tmax films for me. The slightly purple negatives are supposed to print fine, but can't stand it.

I guess our processes must be slightly different as I don't seem to suffer from the purple T-Max problem most of the time, although I do see it occasionally. For the most part I use a rapid fix diluted 1+4 for 6 minutes.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 6, 2020

I guess our processes must be slightly different as I don't seem to suffer from the purple T-Max problem most of the time, although I do see it occasionally. Generally speaking I use a rapid fix diluted 1+4 for 6 minutes.

138S · Aug 6, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I guess our processes must be slightly different as I don't seem to suffer from the purple T-Max problem most of the time, although I do see it occasionally. For the most part I use a rapid fix diluted 1+4 for 6 minutes.

Tom, what rapid fixer do you use? ilford? tf-4 ?

pentaxuser · Aug 6, 2020

NB23 said:
PE had a very long post about modern films being manufactured for even wetting. The anti halation layer working towards that, as well as other layers (inclusive or exclusive of the anti-halation layer). The last word is that film is manufactured to wet evenly.

This is why, also, the stop bath is very important: the infusion/diffusion process afterwards will work towards unevenness.

Without an acid stop bath but using water
instead can cause a lot of uneven patterns. This part, too, is often overlooked.

See the film as being a sponge that you cannot squeeze.

NB23, thanks for the reply and answering my first point but on the second point of getting rid of the anti-halation dye can you say how you do this? Does the stop bath remove it all or is it the fixer and if so does the fixer discolour or does it simply "absorb" the dye and effectively remove its colour so the fixer on being poured back into its container for re-use is again clear and to all intents uncontaminated?

On the question of using a stop bath to avoid unevenness as opposed to several water baths it would appear that some films are prone to "holes" in the emulsion with a stop bath. So in that case a user presumably risks unevenness or holes in the emulsion?

Given PE's long history as a Kodak photo engineer it surprises me a little that the company he worked for has not changed its advice given the fact that modern films are manufactured for even wetting. You'd think at the very least Kodak's advice would change to at least the same position as Ilford which is that while pre-wetting does Ilford films no harm it is unnecessary

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Aug 6, 2020

138S said:
Tom, what rapid fixer do you use? ilford? tf-4 ?

Usually Tetenal Superfix Plus.

138S · Aug 6, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Usually Tetenal Superfix Plus.

At least the "odourless" version is stated neutral, so good to remove the pink stain, the Plus version is acidic IIRC so in theory it would be slow in removing the stain. It would be interesting to know if the "odourless" version removes the pink stain faster than the Plus version...

Alan9940 · Aug 6, 2020

mshchem said:
Use Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for 5 minutes after fixing on the Jobo. Residual dye drives me crazy, this is the only thing that gets rid of the damn purple in Tmax films for me. The slightly purple negatives are supposed to print fine, but can't stand it.
I love Foma paper, but never have tried their film. Now I'm going to challenge myself to conquering the blue! .

Yeah, I've just recently stated using a clearing agent after many years of not using one. I'm a Foma paper fan, too, and quite fond of both Foma 100 and 200 films.

Alan9940 · Aug 6, 2020

138S said:
The pink dye is not well removed in acidic liquid. A neutral or alkaline fixer does a faster job than acidic one to remove the pink.

I have used TF-4 in the past when processing with pyro developers. However, a few of the films I use nowadays seem to fair better in a hardening acidic formula. I know modern films really don't requite a hardener, but to keep things simple I use it on all films.

138S · Aug 6, 2020

OK, I understand your criterion...

Sirius Glass · Aug 6, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
I have been using XTOL for about 10 years and I always prewash Kodak, Ilford, and Rollei when I develop in a stainless steel tank.

Notice that I posted about stainless steel tanks. In the Jobo processor is prewash films using XTOL and replenished EXCEPT FOR Kodak Tri-X 400 peer directions from both Jobo and Tinsley.

mshchem · Aug 6, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I guess our processes must be slightly different as I don't seem to suffer from the purple T-Max problem most of the time, although I do see it occasionally. For the most part I use a rapid fix diluted 1+4 for 6 minutes.

I use Kodak Rapid fix 1+4 w/ hardener. The Hypo clearing agent is just something I've done for the last 50 years. I got started using it when I was a kid, because my cardboard darkroom had a Rubbermaid dishpan with a garden hose drain for a sink, and a cold water faucet. In the old Kodak Darkroom Dataguide book, EKCo claimed after HCA you could wash in water as cold as 40°F.
Now I have a mixing valve, keeps the wash at 70°F, but I still use rapid fix w/ acid hardener and hypo clear.
And there's no dye left. It makes the entire process more complicated, costly and time consuming, so there's that added benefit as well.

mshchem · Aug 6, 2020

Alan9940 said:
Yeah, I've just recently stated using a clearing agent after many years of not using one. I'm a Foma paper fan, too, and quite fond of both Foma 100 and 200 films.

Not to get to far off topic. I've noticed that the Foma FB papers emulsion is more delicate than Ilford, I use hardening fixer and hardener after toning, increase wash times etc. Fomatone is as nice of a VC paper as I've ever used, I like it better than Forte Polywarmtone, and I still have some of that stashed in the freezer.

First experience I had with Foma was making 8x10 contact prints with their Fomalux chloride contact paper (which is simply glorious!) I use a Pako Drum dryer, the paper stuck to the belt so bad, I had to peel it off. Hardener fixed the problem (I put on a new fresh belt just in case)

Adrian Bacon · Aug 9, 2020

I run replenished xtol, and never pre-wash. Yes, sometimes the dye will come out and stain your developer. It could be a problem if you only ever shoot one film that happens to stain your developer. In my case, I run hundreds of different rolls of film through my bottle every month and in practice, at 70ml per roll, a 2 liter bottle will gate completely turned over in ~30 rolls, so for me, yes, the stain is there when I encounter those films, but it tends to go away pretty quick.

Alan9940 · Aug 9, 2020

mshchem said:
Not to get to far off topic. I've noticed that the Foma FB papers emulsion is more delicate than Ilford, I use hardening fixer and hardener after toning, increase wash times etc. Fomatone is as nice of a VC paper as I've ever used, I like it better than Forte Polywarmtone, and I still have some of that stashed in the freezer.

First experience I had with Foma was making 8x10 contact prints with their Fomalux chloride contact paper (which is simply glorious!) I use a Pako Drum dryer, the paper stuck to the belt so bad, I had to peel it off. Hardener fixed the problem (I put on a new fresh belt just in case)

I have a stash of Polywarmtone, too, but it sounds like I may need to try Fomatone.

Adox Lupex is a very nice contact printing paper, too. If you haven't tried it, you may wish to give it a go. I like it a lot; especially developed in Amidol.

removed account4 · Aug 9, 2020

Peter Schrager said:
I always prewash but that's just my workflow

+1. but I was never able to warm upto and use x tol.. during the time I did use it. I followed Kodak’s instructions to the letter and as they prescribed i never pre washed and i also never did the extreme dilutions they recommended originally...

<snip snip snip>

NB23 said:
PE had a very long post about modern films being manufactured for even wetting. The anti halation layer working towards that, as well as other layers (inclusive or exclusive of the anti-halation layer). The last word is that film is manufactured to wet evenly.

NB23 said:

Prewashing denotes a propension towards magical thinking and other illogical processes of thoughts.

prewashing is a bad habit and it is not recomended. The anti-halation layer is also an agent that PROMOTES EVEN wetting of the film.

Click to expand...

PE has many long threads and in some he says with many films it is essential to prewash because it softens and helps even wicking of the chemistry within the emulsion. it is not magical thinking at all. PE was famous for saying do what works for you... now THAT is magical thinking. seeing most people jam their photographic-ideologies down people's throats and insist it is their way or the highway.

YMMVFTSINTWATD

NB23 · Aug 9, 2020

I’m sure all of you know this but here it is once again:
Prewashing with water fills the sponge (the film in this case) with water. You throw away the water and fill it up with developer. Take 15 seconds for the process of the developer taking place of the water to occur. And it does NOT occur evenly.

This does a few things: uneven development that proper agitation cannot really fix, and you lose about 15 seconds of deveopment time.

Also, like a set of tires that are unevenly used from the start, the thread will never get equalized with more use. The uneven pattern will be carried on throughout the life of the tire even though you balance your wheels thereafter (ask any EXPERIENCED mechanic, not your local jobber) and throughout the entire development of the film.
Sure, it might be minimal and unnoticeable, but it is what is occuring! This is why good modern films have been engineered to accept the FIRST wetting very evenly.

this is also why a fresh acid stop bath is very important! If you use water, first it will take more than a few minutes to exchange the developer with water and to stop the active development, and it will indeed continue unevenly. But still, a long water bath is preferable to a short one because if you do a short water rinse and then fix, you will FIX the unevenness and parts of the continued development.

If you ask me, an Acidic stop bath is more important than a prewash in order to prevent uneven development. But both; pre-rinsing and water stop bath are very, very bad practices. Especially since the main aim of a pre-rinse is to get rid of the dyes, those same dyes that are HELPING for an even wetting of the fim.

——
I don’t really mind people doing whatever they wish, and even confronting what I’m saying. But take into consideration that I develop at least 400 rolls a year and print at least 3500 print a year for the past 20 years, roughly. This year is different, I’ve been printing 250 5x7 prints weekly for the past 3 months and plan on continuing until december, in addition to thousands in other sizes. Yes, I must be crazy.
Sure, some people think I’m only braggin but they thoroughly miss the point: I’m merely sharing my experiences based on what I’m doing. I mean, I’m here to share and help as much as I can.

mshchem · Aug 9, 2020

You make a convincing argument. One thing that I find interesting. In the old days I would go into my humble little darkroom with my Kodak Darkroom Dataguide, and a nice information sheet from the box of film.
I wouldn't have dreamed of doing a prewash or skipping a stop bath. I followed the instructions to the letter. I remember reading Popular Photography and seeing different articles. I always stayed true to the manufacturer's recommended processing instructions.

I have a lot of years of being able to get good results. Mostly by following the instructions.

NB23 · Aug 9, 2020

mshchem said:
You make a convincing argument. One thing that I find interesting. In the old days I would go into my humble little darkroom with my Kodak Darkroom Dataguide, and a nice information sheet from the box of film.
I wouldn't have dreamed of doing a prewash or skipping a stop bath. I followed the instructions to the letter. I remember reading Popular Photography and seeing different articles. I always stayed true to the manufacturer's recommended processing instructions.

I have a lot of years of being able to get good results. Mostly by following the instructions.

Indeed, following the instructions is the only way. Sadly, many internet experts often chime in and scream “not following the rules is where true art is...”.

Another gripe I have is with stand development. The best analogy I can give is this: film has to be shaken for a single reason that (or so it seems) most people overlook, and NO, grain is NOT a function of shaking!

You actually shake the tank in order to remove the exhausted developer from the surface of the film and to give place for new, fresh developer onto the surface of the film. That is the required action.

Same as washing hands: you rub your hands in order to remove the used up exhausted soap and to make place for fresh soap. This takes 10-20 seconds and you have evenly clean hands. Rubbing with soap is the required action for clean hands.

Now, as with stand development, do you soak your hands in soapy water for 5 minutes without moving them? Will the soapy water really clean your hands? Will it be thorough? Will there be soap exchange? No.
And if you remove your hands slowly out of the bowl, will they be at least a little clean? My guess is not. The chance that they remain as dirty as before is substantial. And this is stand development: Dipping your immobile hands in soapy water.
Sure, you can try the new trick: semi-stand-wash, which means that you move your fingers very slowly at the 2:30 minute mark, but only for 5 seconds. Because you really don’t want them clean, just spongy.

Who in their right mind wash their hands in such a manner? And who, in their right mind, puts effort into shooting a whole roll of film only to stand-develop it afterwards?

I’m always flabbergasted by this.

Xtol & Pre-soak

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