Xtol & Pre-soak

Alan9940 · Aug 5, 2020

After many years, I have returned to experimenting with Xtol (Mytol, actually) and was wondering what all you Xtol users do with regard to a pre-wash? Kodak, per their Xtol instruction sheet, only recommends a pre-soak with processing sheet film in trays. I seem to recall from long ago that a pre-wash was not recommended when using Xtol. What say you? Pre-wash yes/no? If I do a pre-wash, would it affect negative quality in any way?

Thanks!

abruzzi · Aug 5, 2020

I always have, but since I've never not prewashed, I can't say whether it works better than not prewashing. I just like to get the anti-halation dye out of there before dumping the developer in.

Bormental · Aug 5, 2020

I do not pre-wash because it takes extra time and Ilford specifically does not recommend pre-washing of films I use. However....

Pre-washing solved my problem with Fomapan films as documented here. Also, Fomapan will color your fixer (or any other reusable chems) if you don't pre-wash, which is mildly annoying.
I pre-wash Bergger 400 because its data sheet says so. Results are great, never tried NOT pre-washing.

Peter Schrager · Aug 5, 2020

I always prewash but that's just my workflow

MattKing · Aug 5, 2020

I pre-wash with replenished X-Tol. I also pre-washed with replenished HC-110. I see no deleterious results.

koraks · Aug 5, 2020

I never prewash (with the exception of xray film in trays) with any developer.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 5, 2020

I never prewash. And besides, Ilford doesn't recommend it for their films.

pentaxuser · Aug 5, 2020

Alan you haven't said which film(s) you will be using but I have been using Xtol for probably 10 years now and with Ilford I have never used pre-wash and I have seen no problems. It has been a while since I used TMax 400 in 120 but if I recall correctly I did use a pre-wash there as there was quite a bit of anti-halation dye to remove. In neither case with or without a pre-wash which depended on the existence of anti-halation dye was there a problem

pentaxuser

NB23 · Aug 5, 2020

Prewashing denotes a propension towards magical thinking and other illogical processes of thoughts.

prewashing is a bad habit and it is not recomended. The anti-halation layer is also an agent that PROMOTES EVEN wetting of the film.

Maris · Aug 5, 2020

I reckon pre-washing film is pretty well essential with replenished developer systems.
My replenished Xtol stock bottle of 1.6 litres has been working since 2007 and has had hundreds of films through it. If I didn't pre-wash film this developer might now be very dark (black?) and loaded with the usual bromide and development byproducts PLUS unknown amounts of anti-halation dye, acutance dye, spectral sensitisation dye, and speed trimming dye.

MattKing · Aug 5, 2020

To pre-wash or not to pre-wash - it is a question that approaches the status of a religious question.
And Photrio discourages religious questions.
It has been part of my workflow for many years and I'm not going to change now!
To paraphrase the late Ron Mowrey, if it works for you, that is what is important!

john_s · Aug 5, 2020

Prewash prevents a problem that I had when I went from 35mm film to Neopan 120, which was some small disks of slightly less development which no amount of rapping, thumping, shaking could prevent. These were visible only in clear sky parts of a neg.

Prior to that I hadn't had an air bell problem since the late 1960s.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 5, 2020

I don't pre-wash with XTOL. As others have said ILFORD recommends against pre-washing but I'm not sure I've ever seen a fully worked through explanation of the mechanisms.

138S · Aug 5, 2020

Alan9940 said:
Kodak, per their Xtol instruction sheet, only recommends a pre-soak with processing sheet film in trays.

Modern films don't require pre-soaking because their emulsion contains surfactants to ensure an even development without it. Ilford discourages pre-soaking in the datasheets.

Pre-soaking removes those surfactants and it may lead to uneven development if the Pre-soaking is too short.

With Xtol in trays you don't need to pre-soak, but there is an exception, if you use the shuffle method in trays then a long enough pre-soak is required, if not sheets get "glued" one to the other and you have a total disaster.

Kodak should remark that pre-soaking in trays should be done if using the shuffle method !

Still, no problem if pre-soaking, but if you pre-soak then it's important to not shorten the recommended time, as it may lead to problems.

Personally I never pre-soak, Xtol is my main developer and I obtain perfectly even developments.

Sirius Glass · Aug 5, 2020

I have been using XTOL for about 10 years and I always prewash Kodak, Ilford, and Rollei when I develop in a stainless steel tank.

Randy Stewart · Aug 5, 2020

I've been developing film for 60 years. I've tried pre-wash and no -pre-wash with B&W. I only use B&W developer one-shot. I found no difference between pre-wash and no pre-wash, so long as you use a developing time in excess of 5 minutes. If you have use developing times shorter than 5 minutes, I think a pre-wash promotes a more even infusion of developer into the emulsion - more even development. In color processing, a pre-wash warms the film and tank to process temperature - always used.

MattKing · Aug 5, 2020

FWIW, and this has been part of every discussion here on pre-rinse, each and every reference to pre-rinse I have ever seen on an Ilford data-sheet appears to me to refer specifically to rotary processing.

138S · Aug 5, 2020

MattKing said:
FWIW, and this has been part of every discussion here on pre-rinse, each and every reference to pre-rinse I have ever seen on an Ilford data-sheet appears to me to refer specifically to rotary processing.

Matt, it is true that the datasheet is a bit ambiguous:

"For use in rotary processors without a pre-rinse, reduce the spiral tank development times by up to 15%. A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing."

But recommendation is not specifically for rotary:

Simon Galley: We do not recommend pre-soaking our films, we do not believe it is necessary. BUT nor, done correctly, should it harm them, the risk is uneven development, but if you use a JOBO fine, if pre-soaking is part of workflow and you prefer it...fine.

He says it: if you do it then do it correctly, this is allowing time enough.

pentaxuser · Aug 5, 2020

NB23 said:
prewashing is a bad habit and it is not recomended. The anti-halation layer is also an agent that PROMOTES EVEN wetting of the film.

What is it about the anti-halation layer that promotes even wetting?

What do you do to eventually remove the anti-halation layer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Aug 5, 2020

Since learning to develop film in 1969, I've never prewashed -- until I started processing film again this year after a dozen years away. Initially, I was just trying to avoid Fomapan blue in my Df96 monobath by washing the dye out before pouring the active chemical, but I also found evidence (spot reading back in stuff from PE, among other sources) that developer actually soaks into emulsion faster if the gelatin has already been swelled by a water soak. I haven't seen any indication it's doing any harm; for C-41, it helps to keep the tank down in the tempering bath before the developer goes in, and I can presoak the film while I measure developer, replenisher, stop, and fixer -- so it doesn't take any extra time.

One place I haven't tried it yet is two-bath developers, but if PE's statement about faster developer diffusion in wet film is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), it ought to do no harm there, either. There may be a Dignan C-41 with prewash in my near future.

NB23 · Aug 5, 2020

pentaxuser said:
What is it about the anti-halation layer that promotes even wetting?

What do you do to eventually remove the anti-halation layer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

PE had a very long post about modern films being manufactured for even wetting. The anti halation layer working towards that, as well as other layers (inclusive or exclusive of the anti-halation layer). The last word is that film is manufactured to wet evenly.

This is why, also, the stop bath is very important: the infusion/diffusion process afterwards will work towards unevenness.

Without an acid stop bath but using water
instead can cause a lot of uneven patterns. This part, too, is often overlooked.

See the film as being a sponge that you cannot squeeze.

Bormental · Aug 5, 2020

NB23 said:
Prewashing denotes a propension towards magical thinking and other illogical processes of thoughts.

prewashing is a bad habit and it is not recomended. The anti-halation layer is also an agent that PROMOTES EVEN wetting of the film.

Over-reneralizing is not helpful, especially without having read what's been written above. Bergger data sheet begins with a PRE-SOAKING section where it says "it is highly recommended to presoak in water for at least one minute".

I guess it's just their way of saying "We're targeting users with bad habits who're susceptible to magical thinking"?

mshchem · Aug 5, 2020

I pre-wash. I've been using XTOL since it came out. Replenished, diluted 1+1 one shot, stock one shot in a Jobo etc. Every now and then when I feel adventurous, I skip the pre-wet and follow the instructions.
I have a real thing for pre-wash with color film, get rid of the pink dye.

Just FYI, I am not sure where the Pope would stand on this, my suspicion is the Francis would say "whatever floats your boat" . Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI would forbid pre-wash, or pretty much anything pre. .

John Wiegerink · Aug 5, 2020

Peter Schrager said:
I always prewash but that's just my workflow

I've went both ways and saw no harm one way or the other. Once I went to Xtol Replenished I went back to a 2 minute pre-soak since I didn't want anything extra going back into my working jug. I always used a pre-soak when using pyro and pyrocat developers, but that's not what we're talking about here. Those are just my findings and yours might be different. JW

mshchem · Aug 5, 2020

NB23 said:
PE had a very long post about modern films being manufactured for even wetting. The anti halation layer working towards that, as well as other layers (inclusive or exclusive of the anti-halation layer). The last word is that film is manufactured to wet evenly.

This is why, also, the stop bath is very important: the infusion/diffusion process afterwards will work towards unevenness.

Without an acid stop bath but using water
instead can cause a lot of uneven patterns. This part, too, is often overlooked.

See the film as being a sponge that you cannot squeeze.

Once again there's some nut out there that advocates following the manufacturer's recommended processing instructions. I hereby resolve to stop pre-wash (unless my tank is really cold and I get freaked out about the temperature being right especially with E-6 and that's the one process I always pre-wash because slides are so sensitive to 1st developer temperature and as Matt has stated "It's part of my workflow for many years and I'm not going to change now!" (for E6).
Have a nice day. Mike

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