XTol in 5L Wine bags (reuse)

RoboRepublic · Aug 16, 2023

I've been using xtol with good success this past year. I stored the first 5L in a wine bag, that I've now completely drained. I'm curious if its possible to re-use this bag for the next I'd like to mix. I'd prefer to create less trash.
Anyone have any experience with re-using wine bags? Should I wash the bag with tap water? Instinct is saying no, the water here is quite hard. I'm using distilled water for the actual mixing.

Donald Qualls · Aug 16, 2023

First question is can you get the tap out (if your bag filled through the tap). If that's a solved problem (as with a top-filling screw cap bag?), I'd give it two full-fill rinses with tap water followed by a couple one liter fill-and-slosh rinses with distilled water. Drain as much as possible of the last rinse out before you refill.

The wine bags/boxes I'm using don't seem to make it practical to get the tap out once it's seated correctly, and fill through the tap neck, so I don't see them as reusable -- but I don't process enough to go through them rapidly, and a bag a year or so doesn't seem like a major concern compared to shopping and kitchen...

MattKing · Aug 16, 2023

Many of the taps have a two position detent - if you only insert the tap to the first detent, they are relatively easy to remove and later re-insert. That has worked well for me - it is a strong detent, and there are no signs of leakage.
I expect the second detent is necessary if the bag/box is to be shipped or handled extensively.

pentaxuser · Aug 16, 2023

RoboRepublic said:
I've been using xtol with good success this past year. I stored the first 5L in a wine bag, that I've now completely drained. I'm curious if its possible to re-use this bag for the next I'd like to mix. I'd prefer to create less trash.
Anyone have any experience with re-using wine bags? Should I wash the bag with tap water? Instinct is saying no, the water here is quite hard. I'm using distilled water for the actual mixing.

Yes I do all the time. The problem in the U.K. is that most wine in boxes come in 2.25 L only and the taps are effectively welded in so cannot be removed but homebrew shops do sell such bags and boxes designed for re-use

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Aug 16, 2023

I use StopLossBagsTM StopLossBags.com Buy their funnel two to make it easier to fill them.

braxus · Aug 16, 2023

I just toss them. Im a user that only does minimal rolls per year, so my bag of Xtol lasts quite a while. Usually 6 to 8 months. I just purchased another 4 bags, of which one is used already. I never found the tap easy to remove when I did try it.

destroya · Aug 16, 2023

i use the bags that have the tap at 1 end and a screw top on the other. easy to clean, use, fill and refill

Steven Lee · Aug 16, 2023

@RoboRepublic I rinse my bags with distilled water and refill them with Xtol. However, I noticed some wear on them after a while due to repeat bending, so I don't keep them around for more than a year to avoid accidents. Probably depends on the manufacturer. Mine is AstraPouch.

RoboRepublic · Aug 16, 2023

Steven Lee said:
@RoboRepublic I rinse my bags with distilled water and refill them with Xtol. However, I noticed some wear on them after a while due to repeat bending, so I don't keep them around for more than a year to avoid accidents. Probably depends on the manufacturer. Mine is AstraPouch.

i'm using the same pouch- i'll keep an eye out for wear marks. If i can get another year out of the bag, I wouldn't mind tossing it.

I like how the tap is easy to get out on these pouches

MattKing · Aug 17, 2023

My wine shop guy gives me a couple if I'm in there bottling a batch the old fashioned way - in bottles, with corks.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 17, 2023

RoboRepublic said:
I've been using xtol with good success this past year. I stored the first 5L in a wine bag, that I've now completely drained. I'm curious if its possible to re-use this bag for the next I'd like to mix. I'd prefer to create less trash.
Anyone have any experience with re-using wine bags? Should I wash the bag with tap water? Instinct is saying no, the water here is quite hard. I'm using distilled water for the actual mixing.

People who want to create less trash drink wine out of glass bottles.

Philippe-Georges · Aug 17, 2023

When I mix 5l of (film-)developer, I divide it over 5 1l dark brown wide neck bottles and blow some DUSTOFF over/in it, so the Oxygen is chased away and replaced by a propellant, in this case Butane (or Propane), which is just a little heavier than air and floats above the developer.

Sirius Glass · Aug 17, 2023

I reuse my bags.

Sonynolta User · Aug 18, 2023

If your bag is the type you fill, then push the barbed spigot into that hole (no screw bottle lid to fill type), you can get a piece of surgical (Stretchy) tubing, fit one end to the spigot, one end onto a funnel, then fill with water thru the funnel while opening the spigot. Squish and rinse around, flush out through spigot and repeat as necessary. Then, refill the bag with chemistry through the spigot / funnel.

This method is actually easier for the initial fill as well, because if you have a double barbed spigot to press into the bag, you can make a heck of a mess. (tubing that slips off can as well, but a couple clips can prevent that)

I use this for my C41 developer, and so far, so good. The bag makes it easy to burp out any extra air through the spigot, if you re-align the bag so the spigot is at the high point, where the air would be.

RoboRepublic · Aug 18, 2023

Okay folks I washed my bag first with tap, then with distilled.
I refilled it with freshly mixed xtol but this time, oddly, I got these tiny air bubbles that are kinda stuck to the plastic walls.
Really hard to get them to move up to the exit.

Any advice?

pentaxuser · Aug 19, 2023

RoboRepublic, the few winebags that can still be refilled in the U.K. tend to be those that are silvered on the outside rather than transparent so you can't see if there are any bubbles on the inside. I had always assumed that if there were bubbles then as you filled the bag and then pressed it to bring the liquid to the neck any bubbles wouldn't stick to the sides but be moved towards the neck and simply burst but your experience with a transparent bag has made me wonder if I had bubbles as well but just couldn't see them

However if there were such bubbles, all I can say is that they didn't seem to affect the life of the Xtol in the bag

pentaxuser

madNbad · Aug 19, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I use StopLossBagsTM StopLossBags.com Buy their funnel two to make it easier to fill them.

Are the Stop Loss bags available internationally? Since they’re made for varnish and other finishes they would seem to be a better investment over wine bags.

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2023

madNbad said:
Are the Stop Loss bags available internationally? Since they’re made for varnish and other finishes they would seem to be a better investment over wine bags.

I found them to be superior. The funnel makes filling them very easy. You will have to ask them if they ship internationally, and I think that they would.

Donald Qualls · Aug 19, 2023

pentaxuser said:
However if there were such bubbles, all I can say is that they didn't seem to affect the life of the Xtol in the bag

The amount of air trapped in a wine bag after getting out what you can (including those small, "stuck to the plastic walls" in the photo previous to the post I'm replying to) will contain too little oxygen to have a noticeable effect on 5L of Xtol (or EcoPro or XT-3). What causes issues with bottle stored developers (and not just the ascorbate based ones) is opening the bottle, pouring out developer, possibly pouring in replenisher or pouring back used developer, and closing the bottle again. This refreshes the air trapped above the liquid in the bottle.

You're still better off with a 2L beverage bottle or wired stopper repurposed beer bottle etc. than with an accordion bottle, because the materials are less permeable than the plastic used for accordion bottles, but best is a container you don't have to reopen to pour off stock solution (or replenisher).

I'm doing mine in what I believe is the best manner for a home darkroom: working solution in PET beverage bottles, filled near the top, and stock/replenisher in wine bags. The stock solution will quickly remove the oxygen from the relatively tiny bubble I couldn't get out, and no more oxygen will get in. The tank solution is used repeatedly (and gets oxygen exposure both due to bottle opening and refilling, and while in the tank actaull y working), but is replenished at a rate that offsets both the aerial oxidation and that due to developing silver in the film. And if it's not used for a period of weeks (as sometimes happens; working full time and commuting near an hour daily, plus honey-do activities, eat into my free time pretty badly), there's no additional oxygen entering that PET bottle.

XTol in 5L Wine bags (reuse)

RoboRepublic

Donald Qualls

MattKing

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pentaxuser

Sirius Glass

braxus

destroya

Steven Lee

RoboRepublic

MattKing

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RalphLambrecht

Philippe-Georges

Sirius Glass

Sonynolta User

RoboRepublic

pentaxuser

madNbad

Sirius Glass

Donald Qualls

XTol in 5L Wine bags (reuse)

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