Xtol 1:2

ericdan · May 26, 2019

I know this isn’t officially recommend anymore but does this still work for people?
I use xtol 1:1 now. It’s nice but I’d like a little more sharpness and I’m wondering if a higher dilution would make a noticeable difference.

I’ve never had issues with xtol going bad. I mix the powder into 2.5 liters of distilled water instead of 5L. Keep it in PET bottles with protectant gas. Lasts over 6 months easily.

Sirius Glass · May 26, 2019

I get better results with replenished XTOL. Also XTOL lasts longer, finder grain, better sharpness and lower cost per roll than diluted XTOL which is used as one shot developer.

ericdan · May 26, 2019

I live in japan and already work out of a make shift darkroom. Not sure if I can permanently fit a 5 liter tank in there too.

mooseontheloose · May 26, 2019

I often use Xtol 1:2 and have had no problems doing so. To be fair though, I wasn't looking for extra sharpness, just needed to make what I had stretch a little longer.

Just curious as to what your makeshift darkroom is - when I was in Kumamoto it was the "LD" room in my house, but each of the 4 sides had either windows or sliding doors and it was a pain in the butt to make light tight, and even then it wasn't perfect so I could only print at night - once I did I'd have it up for a while, just to have to avoid doing it again and again. Based on that experience, when I moved to Kyoto I specifically looked for a 2 bedroom apartment so I could make the second one into a darkroom. No running water, but it's a dedicated space and it works (although with the temperatures already record highs not sure how much I'll be able to work in there over the summer).

ericdan · May 26, 2019

Well, my enlarger sits on top of my bathroom sink. I brush teeth in the kitchen and shower with my print washer.
I’m planning to move this year. My next place will have a spare room for a dedicated space. I just have to get out of shibuya.

ericdan · May 26, 2019

In the summer I use dry ice packs they hand out in super markets. The plastic is chemical resistant. I just drop it into the developer trays.

Hekoru · May 26, 2019

ericdan said:
Well, my enlarger sits on top of my bathroom sink. I brush teeth in the kitchen and shower with my print washer.
I’m planning to move this year. My next place will have a spare room for a dedicated space. I just have to get out of shibuya.

Let me know where it is that you move to. I'm looking to get out of Shibuya too for some extra space!

RalphLambrecht · May 26, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
I get better results with replenished XTOL. Also XTOL lasts longer, finder grain, better sharpness and lower cost per roll than diluted XTOL which is used as one shot developer.

I like that. using developer as one-shot is a good idea to get the most consistent results.

mshchem · May 26, 2019

As long as you have 100mg per 80 sq. In stock you will be OK. If you use a Jobo with recommended volumes in rotation you need to use stock XTOL. I used XTOL 1&2 -in Paterson tanks until EKCo. said stop. Never had a problem. Paterson tanks use 300mm for 35 mm and 500mm for 1 roll of 120 so 1:2 was never a problem.
I'm a Garage sale Jobo user now. When my CPP2 goes I'm buying a CPP3. If you use oversized tanks 1:2 works fine and you can make a nice lunch while it goes on and on.
Best Regards Mike

Andrew O'Neill · May 26, 2019

When I lived in Japan (Kyushu) I used Xtol a lot at various dilutions, up to 1+3 with excellent results. I used mainly HP5 and HIE. Since space was limited to me as well, I kept the 5L stock in five, 1L accordian bottles. It was a real challenge keeping stuff cool during the summer months, so I purchased a small bar fridge to keep stock developer in. Tap water was a constant 30C. Always had to be making ice cubes. My tiny darkroom was like hell until I stuck in an AC in its tiny window... Which leaked light like a sieve! It's so much easier here in Canada! Mt second darkroom in Japan was better then the first one I had. The first one was just a kitchen corner, with several layers of black plastic bin bags duct taped together. I could only work at night.

Andrew O'Neill · May 26, 2019

Forgot to say in regards to sharpness, I didn't notice an increase. I was doing it mainly for economy.

Maris · May 27, 2019

ericdan said:
I live in japan and already work out of a make shift darkroom. Not sure if I can permanently fit a 5 liter tank in there too.

Xtol when first mixed lives best in five 1 litre bottles rather than a large, heavy, and cumbersome 5 litre tank. One of the bottles can be designated as the stock and the other 4 will be used as replenisher.
The advantage here is that the stock bottle, when stored between developing sessions, is always full to the top to avoid oxidation. The replenisher bottles are also full to the top or completely empty except for the one in use.
When all the replenisher is used up a new 5 x1litre row of replenisher bottles is prepared to nourish the original stock bottle to keep its strength up.
This is the system I use and my original stock bottle of Xtol has been good since 2007. Ongoing cost? About 30 cents per film. Can't complain.

mshchem · May 27, 2019

Maris said:
Xtol when first mixed lives best in five 1 litre bottles rather than a large, heavy, and cumbersome 5 litre tank. One of the bottles can be designated as the stock and the other 4 will be used as replenisher.
The advantage here is that the stock bottle, when stored between developing sessions, is always full to the top to avoid oxidation. The replenisher bottles are also full to the top or completely empty except for the one in use.
When all the replenisher is used up a new 5 x1litre row of replenisher bottles is prepared to nourish the original stock bottle to keep its strength up.
This is the system I use and my original stock bottle of Xtol has been good since 2007. Ongoing cost? About 30 cents per film. Can't complain.

I kept a 2 L bottle "tank" replenished for a couple years. Same thing with a big Brown 1 gallon glass jug of HC-110 Dilution B. If you use the replenishment scheme set out by Kodak there's no better way. XTOL was designed for everything, including big machine processors that almost never dumped a tank, just replenished and ran a control strip now and then.

Ian Grant · May 27, 2019

I can sympathise withe the space issue, I had the same problems when living in our one bedroom apartment in Turkey, storage space for chemistry was the issue.. I was using Xtol in the UK for some of my films, always replenished, very economical and consistent, I'd split a 5 litre pack once mixed into 2.5 litres working solution and 2.5 litres replenisher.

Xtol works well at 1+2 (2+4). but as you have mixed it at double strength the equivalent is 1+5. Perceptol and ID-11/D76 also work well at 1+2.

Like you I've mixed developers at double strength, in my case Pyrocat HD Part A, this has been to cut bulk and particularly weight when flying, and also storage space.

Ian

Rolfe Tessem · May 27, 2019

Kodak no longer publishes data for Xtol at 1:2, probably because so many people were forgetting that regardless of dilution, you still have to use 100ml of stock solution per roll. At 300ml of solution per roll, that will cause difficulty with some tanks with multiple rolls, for example.

Rolfe

Ian Grant · May 27, 2019

Rolfe Tessem said:
Kodak no longer publishes data for Xtol at 1:2, probably because so many people were forgetting that regardless of dilution, you still have to use 100ml of stock solution per roll. At 300ml of solution per roll, that will cause difficulty with some tanks with multiple rolls, for example.

Rolfe

Kodak have never published a time for 1+2 they do publish a tine for 1+1 which is technically 1:2. Unfortunately they use the ratio sign incorrectly

Ian

Tom Kershaw · May 27, 2019

I've used XTOL at 1+1.5 which works well for slower films in a Jobo were the 1+1 time may be rather short, and still complies with the Kodak recommended minimum of 100ml stock solution per film. However, I've just started a fresh batch of XTOL that I'll be using in a replenishment regime, but haven't processed any Pan F Plus yet.

Sal Santamaura · May 27, 2019

Other than when developing four sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo 3004 Expert Drum, XTOL 1+2 is my standard regime. For that exceptional case, I use it 1+1.5 (400ml stock plus 600ml distilled water) to respect the minimum quantity of stock per 80 square inches of film.

XTOL 1+2 provides extremely sharp negatives, much more so than 1+1. This page

https://noframenogain.com/2018/08/28/ilford-hp5-in-xtol-11-and-12/

shows the difference.

Ian Grant said:
Kodak have never published a time for 1+2...

Kodak did indeed publish times for XTOL 1+2 as well as 1+3. The original data sheet with all that information can be found here:

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j109-1998_04.pdf

Ian Grant · May 27, 2019

Sal Santamaura said:
Other than when developing four sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo 3004 Expert Drum, XTOL 1+2 is my standard regime. For that exceptional case, I use it 1+1.5 (400ml stock plus 600ml distilled water) to respect the minimum quantity of stock per 80 square inches of film.

XTOL 1+2 provides extremely sharp negatives, much more so than 1+1. This page

https://noframenogain.com/2018/08/28/ilford-hp5-in-xtol-11-and-12/

shows the difference.Kodak did indeed publish times for XTOL 1+2 as well as 1+3. The original data sheet with all that information can be found here:

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j109-1998_04.pdf

I stand corrected, that's the updated 1998 data sheet after Kodak dropped the US Imperial sized packaging in the US market and went fully Metric. I don't remember seeing the 1+2 dilution before.

Totally agree that the 1+2 dilution gives better sharpness etc, it's the same with D76/ID-11 at 1+2, and is on a par with the same developers used replenished. I've never understood why Ilford and Kodak never published 1+2 times for ID-11 & D76.

Ian

Sirius Glass · May 27, 2019

Maris said:
Xtol when first mixed lives best in five 1 litre bottles rather than a large, heavy, and cumbersome 5 litre tank. One of the bottles can be designated as the stock and the other 4 will be used as replenisher.
The advantage here is that the stock bottle, when stored between developing sessions, is always full to the top to avoid oxidation. The replenisher bottles are also full to the top or completely empty except for the one in use.
When all the replenisher is used up a new 5 x1litre row of replenisher bottles is prepared to nourish the original stock bottle to keep its strength up.
This is the system I use and my original stock bottle of Xtol has been good since 2007.Ongoing cost? About 30 cents per film. Can't complain.

I do the same. One bottle for replenished XTOL, one expandable for the stock replenishing, and three others with stock.

mooseontheloose · May 28, 2019

Sal Santamaura said:
Kodak did indeed publish times for XTOL 1+2 as well as 1+3. The original data sheet with all that information can be found here:

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j109-1998_04.pdf

Thanks for that! It's interesting how much less information is available on data sheets now compared to the past.

mooseontheloose · May 28, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
When I lived in Japan (Kyushu) I used Xtol a lot at various dilutions, up to 1+3 with excellent results. I used mainly HP5 and HIE. Since space was limited to me as well, I kept the 5L stock in five, 1L accordian bottles. It was a real challenge keeping stuff cool during the summer months, so I purchased a small bar fridge to keep stock developer in. Tap water was a constant 30C. Always had to be making ice cubes. My tiny darkroom was like hell until I stuck in an AC in its tiny window... Which leaked light like a sieve! It's so much easier here in Canada! Mt second darkroom in Japan was better then the first one I had. The first one was just a kitchen corner, with several layers of black plastic bin bags duct taped together. I could only work at night.

The main reason I make ice cubes is to help cool off chemicals in the summer - I also keep distilled water in the fridge, but for stock solutions the only thing I can really do is put the containers in a cold water bath with as many ice cubes I as possible (which isn't much, considering the size of my fridge/freezer). In the summer the coldest the tap water runs at is about 30C, so that's not much help. Japan hit a high of 39.5C on Sunday, if it's like that now, I can only imagine what the summer will bring! I do have an aircon unit in my darkroom, but it's currently out of order, so I have limited time to work in there before it really does become unbearable.

ericdan said:
In the summer I use dry ice packs they hand out in super markets. The plastic is chemical resistant. I just drop it into the developer trays.

I never thought of that - will have to try it!

Vaidotas · May 28, 2019

I’m keeping Xtol stock (made with distilled water) in 1 liter bottles, it last for me more tham 6 months, teperature is not an issue in Lithania.
Combo of 1:1 with Kodak TX is my favourite.
Also it works nice in mixture with Rodinal.

Andrew O'Neill · May 28, 2019

mooseontheloose said:
The main reason I make ice cubes is to help cool off chemicals in the summer - I also keep distilled water in the fridge, but for stock solutions the only thing I can really do is put the containers in a cold water bath with as many ice cubes I as possible (which isn't much, considering the size of my fridge/freezer). In the summer the coldest the tap water runs at is about 30C, so that's not much help. Japan hit a high of 39.5C on Sunday, if it's like that now, I can only imagine what the summer will bring! I do have an aircon unit in my darkroom, but it's currently out of order, so I have limited time to work in there before it really does become unbearable.

I never thought of that - will have to try it!

Drove me nuts the warm water coming out of the "cold" tap, especially when I'd get up in the middle of the night (peeling myself from the futon!) for a drink! I don't miss Japan summers at all!

Maris · May 28, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Drove me nuts the warm water coming out of the "cold" tap, especially when I'd get up in the middle of the night (peeling myself from the futon!) for a drink! I don't miss Japan summers at all!

I've discovered that conventional black and white film will cope with development up to and beyond 38 Celcius (100F) which is the standard temperature for the E6 and C41 colour films. The hottest development I've done was Tmax400 in Tmax 1+4 developer at 45 Celcius (2minutes 15 seconds). There was no time to wait. The negs had to be developed immediately during a shoot to confirm correct camera operation. This was in Blackall, Australia where the town water supply comes out of the ground at 58 Celcius and children have to be careful not to get scalded by the water from the cold tap. The negs survived and the picture book that was subsequently published got no complaints.

By the way with my batch of replenished Xtol development of Tmax 400 goes 3 minutes at 33 Celcius and 4 minutes at 30 Celcius, etc, etc...

Xtol 1:2

ericdan

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