WTH is going on? Cost increases in used MF gear??

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2018

“Little bit of fact, little bit of fiction. Some are smoking crack, quite the affliction.

If yer’ Hassy’s outta whack, buy another, quit yer bitch’n. Load a twelve’r up with film, soup’s a wait’n in the kitchen.

Hipsters think your tripsters, question all the hoo-a-bally. Weve’ a vision with no division, digits not our folly. Pass on a shiny shooter and for sure you will be sorry.

Gotta itch I gotta scratch, real long term? Prolly.”

chris77 · Dec 14, 2018

cheers

EdSawyer · Dec 14, 2018

JCowell already does this sort of thing with his lens$db effort. I know he tracks some MF gear, but not all of it. May be worth investigating or adding to it, possibly (or at least mimicking the format)

-Ed

raizans said:
Would anyone be interested in starting a collaborative price tracking website? People could be assigned to track selling prices of various items on the auction site and classified sections on websites. We'd type it all into a Google Sheet and make some live charts. I suppose we'd have to make a visual dictionary for condition ratings to make it consistent and standardized.

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2018

Last year I decided to add a couple of 501CM bodies to my toolset and then have all 4 of them CLA’d for the long run. In one case an otherwise mint body was super jammed and went for $400 only adding $100 to the price of the CLA to repair it.

I have not a clue what prices could look like in the next 10 years or so but an upward trend seems likely given the increased awareness of all things mechanical in the analog world. I made my moves with Hasselblad to bolster my options because it is my number one choice for making images, regardless of format. I do know this though, there are some pretty amazing 3-D printing options coming online that now use metals and can achieve aerospace component like output with not a lot of money so as parts dry up, there will be a way to make them that will not require a large upfront and high unit count cost associated with how it was previously done.

On another note, I cleaned out my gear closet a bit to help offset the cost of my new Deville Bobinoir mural paper processor which ships this week. The bulk of it was paid for by the sale of a Hasselblad Xpan kit I had since 2003. I had not used it in over 3 years and it had a CLA by Hasselblad in 2008 so it fetched far more than I paid for it. I know I will miss it once and awhile but I have a friend and colleague who has two of them and would gladly loan me one for a project if it ever happens I want to do that.

Really, buy what you want at a decent price, life it way too short and aside from this stuff not being made anymore, it is still well worth even double what people might ask because that is less then when new.

Kodachromeguy · Dec 14, 2018

Ai Print said:
Really, buy what you want at a decent price, life it way too short and aside from this stuff not being made anymore, it is still well worth even double what people might ask because that is less then when new.

I agree with your sentiment, Ai. Really. most of this mechanical camera equipment is cheap, especially if you compare the new price with the purchasing power of a worker or professional back when it was new. However, one thing to consider is the price of a cleaning or overhaul can be pretty stiff (here in USA), and there are fewer and fewer experts still doing this work.

Another way to consider the price of used equipment: it is a cheap hobby. Even film and processing is not all that costly. The film-haters on Dpreview like to claim film is so expensive, but they are thinking in terms of the 10^4 snaps they would take on a weekend with their super-computerized DSLR thing. They have a totally different mindset and seem to think nothing of totally changing digital brands every few years. Photography is cheap compared to antique cars, SCUBA, skiing, young women, the wine thing, art-collecting, etc., etc.

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2018

Kodachrome guy, I can understand the CLA expense weighing into it but you will have to forgive me, photography stopped being a hobby when I was 17, been a life and a career ever since.

As far as the whole dpreview thing, that is an unfortunate point really but not for the reason you may think. I have been using the “D” stuff since 1994 and find it a perfectly willing partner for my film use, I choose my systems according to that idea. The unfortunate part of this equation is that while places like dpreview are no where near as critical of film use and there is a remarkably positive vibe compared to years passed....a good number of folks on this site seem to really not hold back at being critical of the other side of the image making aisle any chance they get.

I give inference to this in my poetry above. Sure would be nice if people broadened their perspectives a bit.

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2018

Ai Print said:
Kodachrome guy, I can understand the CLA expense weighing into it but you will have to forgive me, photography stopped being a hobby when I was 17, been a life and a career ever since.

Number 1 reason that I became an electrical engineer. I wanted photography to always be fun for me.

Ai Print · Dec 14, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Number 1 reason that I became an electrical engineer. I wanted photography to always be fun for me.

Number 1 reason I became a photographer, to ensure I can do it all the time and have far more freedom, flexibility and fun in that capacity than if it were a hobby outside of my day job.

It’s all good, best time ever to enjoy it regardless of how one pays their bills...;-)

John Galt · Dec 14, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Number 1 reason that I became an electrical engineer. I wanted photography to always be fun for me.

LOL! the school I got my EE degree from also had Civil Engineers . . . the Joke was that while EE's designed weapons systems . . . CE's designed targets . . . so sue me

StanMac · Dec 14, 2018

It isn’t just MF prices that are going bonkers - a Pentax MX I was watching on the Goodwill auction just went for $101!

Stan

Roger Cole · Dec 15, 2018

StanMac said:
It isn’t just MF prices that are going bonkers - a Pentax MX I was watching on the Goodwill auction just went for $101!

Stan

That's not bonkers for a nice MX. I have an MX. In a way it's my favorite 35mm camera among those I own. I think I actually enjoy shooting with it more than with my LX though the LX is a very nice camera with a lot more features. The MX has always been recognized as quite nice to use, and priced accordingly.

jsouther · Dec 18, 2018

Ai Print said:
“Little bit of fact, little bit of fiction. Some are smoking crack, quite the affliction.

If yer’ Hassy’s outta whack, buy another, quit yer bitch’n. Load a twelve’r up with film, soup’s a wait’n in the kitchen.

Hipsters think your tripsters, question all the hoo-a-bally. Weve’ a vision with no division, digits not our folly. Pass on a shiny shooter and for sure you will be sorry.

Gotta itch I gotta scratch, real long term? Prolly.”

This made me smile. Love it!

removedacct1 · Dec 18, 2018

Ai Print said:
...a good number of folks on this site seem to really not hold back at being critical of the other side of the image making aisle any chance they get. Sure would be nice if people broadened their perspectives a bit.

Of all the online photography communities (and the one real life one I am part of), PHOTRIO is the only one in which discussions are frequently tainted by those who seem to think that the film photography aspect of the site is somehow corrupted and ruined by the merest mention of digital technologies. This kind of acrimony doesn't exist elsewhere. Why is so conspicuous here??
I find these complaints ironic because this forum cannot exist without digital technology: you can't share your ideas or your photos without submitting them digitally.

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2018

paulbarden said:
Of all the online photography communities (and the one real life one I am part of), PHOTRIO is the only one in which discussions are frequently tainted by those who seem to think that the film photography aspect of the site is somehow corrupted and ruined by the merest mention of digital technologies. This kind of acrimony doesn't exist elsewhere. Why is so conspicuous here??
I find these complaints ironic because this forum cannot exist without digital technology: you can't share your ideas or your photos without submitting them digitally.

Obviously you have never posted a film question on a website other than APUG. I did a few times in the past and got enough $#!+ to fertilize all the corn and wheat fields in North America because of my posting. I am not the only one here to experience it. Many of us are here because they too experienced it. You are upset because you feel that digital is beyond reproach and do not like being on the other end of the deluge.

Now let us get back to the original topic.

removedacct1 · Dec 18, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
You are upset because you feel that digital is beyond reproach and do not like being on the other end of the deluge.

I'm not upset. I simply don't enjoy witnessing the "deluge" of prejudiced anti-D rants. Make no mistake, I am 100% pro-film for my creative, personal work. But that doesn't mean I feel a need to lash out at the D-people and moan about the D-agenda ruining the environment. How absurd.

removed account4 · Dec 18, 2018

paulbarden said:
I'm not upset. I simply don't enjoy witnessing the "deluge" of prejudiced anti-D rants. Make no mistake, I am 100% pro-film for my creative, personal work. But that doesn't mean I feel a need to lash out at the D-people and moan about the D-agenda ruining the environment. How absurd.

couldn't agree more with everything you said in this post and
the one before it.
it is really too bad people have such a chip on their shoulder
personally i see very few differences between the 2 media .. but that is just me
it must be the hate your cousin syndrome which pretty much is a world wide pandemic
oh well. we can only hope 2019 will be less of more of the same

DREW WILEY · Dec 20, 2018

I'm a big fan of the "D" epidemic. It's precisely why so many pro cameras and lenses, in all formats, are so affordable these days. There are minor ups and downs related to supply and demand, and a few cult lenses that get overpriced, but overall, it's the golden age of film gear bargains.

Kiruna69 · Jan 5, 2019

Just a note from a MF film shooter from Sweden. I've been shooting film since the 80's and have noticed the same price increase in some of the film cameras over the last few years. Especially all of the Hasselblads, Mamiya 6/6MF/7/7ii, Rolleiflex (of course), Fuji GW670/690. Leica also but they have always been expensive. The Contax 645 has gone up from an already high price, and the Pentax 6x7/67 also. Even some 35mm cameras are way more expensive now than 5 years ago; Especially the older Nikon, Contax, Canon, Pentax, som of the Minolta, Bessa, Zeiss and so on. The plastic electronic crap autofocus cameras from the 90's is still quite cheap. But they are not very fun, and they are difficult or impossible to repair.

I use Mamiya RB 67ProSD, Mamiya C330/C220, and Mamiya 645 Pro, and they are still affordable. The prices has gone up a little but not at all as much as the other I listed above. I bought my cameras from Japan, Germany, UK, and here in Sweden during the last 5 years. I also have some old 35mm cameras from the 70's which I bought on a flea market; Pentax K1000, Spotmatic, Minolta SR-7.

In 2005 I bought a Hasselblad 500C with three backs, wide angle lens, 80mm and 150mm and some accessories for a very cheap price here in Sweden. Now they go for way more. I regret I sold it after using it for 4 years. But I have my Mamiyas and I love them. They are still a great bargain. Especially the RB is considered awkward for most people because of the weight. I don't think they will ever be expensive. The same for the Fuji 680 cameras which are even bigger.

I think the increase in prices are because more young people are getting into film, and some camera models are reviewed on Youtube by influential channels and lots of viewers are influenced by them. Some of the cameras are considered "cool" by the young trendy people.
I would love to own a Mamiya 6 or 7 but the prices are ridiculous.

Buy the "not cool" cameras and you will still get them cheap

This price increase is a good sign...If film cameras are used more the film might survive for a long time.

Arklatexian · Jan 5, 2019

jim10219 said:
First the prices of 35mm gear shot up. Now it's medium format. Now's the time to switch to large format before they shoot up as well.

One big difference between large format and the other formats is there are still companies manufacturing them so I doubt that used cameras will sell for more than the new ones by the same manufacturer as has happened with some used 35mm and medium format equipment. My Hasselblad 500cm goes for more, used, now than it did, new, in the early 1960s, not factoring in inflation. Maybe some 4x5 used Crown Graphics and Technikas are doing the same thing, Golly, I wish I had bought that Super Technika 50 years ago at the same time I bought the Hasselblad........Regards!

Prest_400 · Jan 5, 2019

Kiruna69 said:
Just a note from a MF film shooter from Sweden. I've been shooting film since the 80's and have noticed the same price increase in some of the film cameras over the last few years. Especially all of the Hasselblads, Mamiya 6/6MF/7/7ii, Rolleiflex (of course), Fuji GW670/690. Leica also but they have always been expensive. The Contax 645 has gone up from an already high price, and the Pentax 6x7/67 also. Even some 35mm cameras are way more expensive now than 5 years ago; Especially the older Nikon, Contax, Canon, Pentax, som of the Minolta, Bessa, Zeiss and so on. The plastic electronic crap autofocus cameras from the 90's is still quite cheap. But they are not very fun, and they are difficult or impossible to repair.

This price increase is a good sign...If film cameras are used more the film might survive for a long time.

Wholeheartedly agree. I personally have a Japan sourced GW690 mkIII and got it quite cheap 5 years ago, did a quick look and they aren't that cheap anymore. On RFF there was a thread rolling on why these Fujis were rather cheap, as they do not have the same cache as other cameras. Mamiya 7 and P67 on the other hand have tripled price in some cases. The P67 105mm is just a (well hyped?) reason to get into the system.

BTW I live in one of the student cities and there's quite a bit of younger ones getting into and shooting film. I'm finding shooting a bit hard up there in Sweden with the short days of the season, Kiruna must be hard and low on light now!

pbromaghin · Jan 5, 2019

paulbarden said:
Of all the online photography communities (and the one real life one I am part of), PHOTRIO is the only one in which discussions are frequently tainted by those who seem to think that the film photography aspect of the site is somehow corrupted and ruined by the merest mention of digital technologies. This kind of acrimony doesn't exist elsewhere. Why is so conspicuous here??
I find these complaints ironic because this forum cannot exist without digital technology: you can't share your ideas or your photos without submitting them digitally.

How quickly you forget. Until recently, APUG was the only place on the web that was reserved solely for film photography discussion. In that context, any encroachment of digital discussion WAS a real threat and a corruption. After all, with the internet chock full and overflowing with places to discuss digital photography, why do it in a film forum? However, in it's new life as Photrio, Sean has somehow successfully brought the 2 together without any damage to film discussion that I have been able to see.

Kiruna69 · Jan 6, 2019

Prest_400 said:
Wholeheartedly agree. I personally have a Japan sourced GW690 mkIII and got it quite cheap 5 years ago, did a quick look and they aren't that cheap anymore. On RFF there was a thread rolling on why these Fujis were rather cheap, as they do not have the same cache as other cameras. Mamiya 7 and P67 on the other hand have tripled price in some cases. The P67 105mm is just a (well hyped?) reason to get into the system.

BTW I live in one of the student cities and there's quite a bit of younger ones getting into and shooting film. I'm finding shooting a bit hard up there in Sweden with the short days of the season, Kiruna must be hard and low on light now!

Yes the sun came up above the horizon only four days ago, so we're low on light still for a few weeks. But It's changing fast, already in february the days are quite nice and bright.
And during summer the sun is up all night

JWMster · Jan 8, 2019

I think the Digital vs. Film case is getting stated as if there is a problem when I actually don't run into that here. The Largeformat site? Yes. Here? Not so much. As PBROMaghin points out, we have Hybrid and Digital forums here now.
That said, for my part I shoot less and less digital - except with my iPhone and more and more film. But I'm a hybrid and happily so, and scan and print digitally.

Thinking out loud for myself, the things I like about film photography differ from those that I like about digital. Yet whenever I wonder why I bother with film negatives... it's far too easy to start weighing the PROS and CONS of one medium vs. another. I don't find it terribly productive so much of a factor of image capture technique - each with the limitations, strengths and joys. What is more productive is the energy devoted to going out and just shoot, shoot, shoot; followed by edit, edit, edit and print, print, print. Yeah.... 3 X for everything ... and that understates how much effort it takes to get what I can, and begin to get an idea of what I want to try to get next time. In music we used to say it took 21 repeats to learn something the first time; 21 repeats to unlearn your mistakes, and another 21 to do it right. That's a lot of work, and it doesn't leave much time for jawwing 'bout the tools. And yet I'm thankful of the time others have offered to help those of us with lesser skills learn. That's the amazing thing about this site. Thank you!

Sixbysixjan · Jan 18, 2019

I think I may be slightly late to this thread, but I just have to throw in my 2 cents worth... About 2 years or so ago I bought a Bronica SQ body from KEH, advertized as near-mint. When I received it, I came to the conclusion that it must be brand-new "old stock" - absolutely no sign of a film back or lens ever being mounted on it, the leatherette looking like it came out of the factory just the previous day (and yes, functions as if brand-new as well). I paid the princely sum of about $85 for it - and looking at the KEH catalogue now, there is absolutely zero chance of repeating that "bargain". It is a bit of a shocker for me, not that I envisage ever wearing out my Bronica gear - I don't think I have enough years left to do that.

moto-uno · Jan 18, 2019

^ If my experience over the last decade is any indication (Etrs(i) ) we're gonna have to live a long time to see our Bronica stuff wear out ! Peter

WTH is going on? Cost increases in used MF gear??

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