Wratten Filter Question

Monday317 · Jun 8, 2015

In the market for a Series 6 #21 orange filter; not too many around. I am seeing a fair number 85s A, B, C; does anyone know (not guess, please) if one of these can be substituted for the same B + W contrast effect?

Many thanks all.

AgX · Jun 8, 2015

Not for the same contrast. The filter characteristics beetween conversion- and contrast filters are too divers.

But, depending on your subject you could gain some contrast effect. That would be for deep blue subjects. Due to the matter it is hard to be more precise.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 8, 2015

Colored filters like the typical series yellow -> orange -> red are NOT contrast filters. These filters darken blue objects like the sky but overall do not change the contrast of a scene. An orange filter will lighten objects that are yellow or orange in color. It would be helpful to study the color wheel which gives the relations between the two sets of primary colors. Calling them "contrast filters" is a common but erroneous designation.

The following may be of help to you. http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Lab_And_Post_Production/Kodak_Filters/wrattten2.htm

AgX · Jun 8, 2015

If a part of the scene gets darkened or lightened, then this changes the contrast within the scene.

Kodak themselves use the term contrast filter.

As any other manufacturer, author or encyclopedia I can think of at the moment.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 8, 2015

AgX said:
If a part of the scene gets darkened or lightened, then this changes the contrast within the scene.

Kodak themselves use the term contrast filter.

As any other manufacturer, author or encyclopedia I can think of at the moment.

The trap is in thinking that the contrast of the entire scene is increased. Think of a scene that contains only black, gray or white objects. You're not going to see any increase in contrast with an orange (or any other colored filter). Only a polarizing filter can do this without changing the relative contrasts between some objects the scene.

AgX · Jun 8, 2015

A polarizer changes contrast as well as those "contrast" filters, may it be by darkening a sky, a window or a specular reflection.

All these filters can as well change gross- or detail-contrast. Depending on circumstance. And thus of course applying the term "contrast filter" just on some coloured filters is questionable. But this is the terminology as it has evolved.

Another issue is the definition of contrast. As seen by applying development variations or those filter.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 8, 2015

AgX said:
But this is the terminology as it has evolved.

The dumbing down of technology.

Xmas · Jun 8, 2015

If your zone 1 shadow is 'open shade' then a minus blue filter will convert it to zone 0?

That is a detectable increase in contrast in the negative?

Any change in contrast is dependent on scene, filter spectral response & film spectral response.

Monday317 · Jun 9, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
Colored filters like the typical series yellow -> orange -> red are NOT contrast filters. These filters darken blue objects like the sky but overall do not change the contrast of a scene. An orange filter will lighten objects that are yellow or orange in color. It would be helpful to study the color wheel which gives the relations between the two sets of primary colors. Calling them "contrast filters" is a common but erroneous designation.

The following may be of help to you. http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Lab_And_Post_Production/Kodak_Filters/wrattten2.htm

Well, yeah, kind of. By altering the spectrum the film sees, it's not technically a contrast filter but a gamma shift in the red, green and blue response by the chosen film. However, one could effectively argue the effect of the bandpass alteration via filter will have the net effect of a contrast change in the final print, per filter color. To cite your example an orange filter--will block a goodly portion of blue light, darkening a clear blue sky and lightening brick buildings. The orange will also darken shadows illuminated by skylight and make differences in cloud values more pronounced. Not to overlook foliage values; sounds like another way to express "contrast change" to me..!

Ultimately one can argue over the semantics ad infinitum--of which I am guilty. To wit, "Reciprocity Failure" is a term like "irregardless"--jangles my nerves. There actually is no such thing as reciprocity failure, it is reciprocity effect (more accurately, the Schwarzschild effect) regarding non-linearity of EVs over expected exposure times at reduced or the reaction of film to excessive luminance, e.g., "black suns". Over the years, I've learned to quit browbeating fellow photogs over it. (But not the use of "irregardless"--a man has to draw a line somewhere...)

I understand what everyone means, my own focus is what gets onto the paper.

MattKing · Jun 9, 2015

I've always interpreted "Reciprocity Failure" to mean the inability of the photographic material to behave consistent with the assumption that all the various combinations of exposure times and light intensities resulting in the same Exposure Value will give the same result.

Really a failure of the assumption, rather than the material.

Monday317 · Jun 9, 2015

MattKing said:
I've always interpreted "Reciprocity Failure" to mean the inability of the photographic material to behave consistent with the assumption that all the various combinations of exposure times and light intensities resulting in the same Exposure Value will give the same result.

Really a failure of the assumption, rather than the material.

Now that I could live with! Thank you Matt, for a better perspective.

Monday317 · Jun 9, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
I never had a #47 filter. But I do have an 80B. So if and when I need a blue filter, at least I've got that. I'd use it and get by. Better than nothing for the purpose.

I thought so as well, 19.

Some extra digging and posts on other forums confirmed the idea of using the right tool for the right job. Color compensating filters are useful for color film and contrast filters (with apologies to Mr. Koch) are needed for b + w emulsions. Not to say a cc filter is never useful for b + w: a CCY 20 or greater might do as a skylight filter in the absence of something more suited. But for the kind of effect the monochrome maven seeks, the steep bandpass of the contrast filter is a necessity. The #47 in Series 6 is likely to be available somewhere, but it's just a curiosity, not a necessity.

:munch:

RalphLambrecht · Jun 9, 2015

Monday317 said:
In the market for a Series 6 #21 orange filter; not too many around. I am seeing a fair number 85s A, B, C; does anyone know (not guess, please) if one of these can be substituted for the same B + W contrast effect?

Many thanks all.

Thry all have their wn specific spectral transmission.Therefore the answer must be 'No' unless you specify how much deviation you're willing to accept.To me the std filter set is yellow #8 green #11, ORANGE#15 and red#25 and there is a big difference between red an orange.some of the filters you mrntioned are closer to red than to orange.There is an older Kodak publication on Wratten filters out therethat shows all the data and detail about the individual filters.I suggest to get ahold of a used copy

RobC · Jun 9, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
Colored filters like the typical series yellow -> orange -> red are NOT contrast filters. These filters darken blue objects like the sky but overall do not change the contrast of a scene. An orange filter will lighten objects that are yellow or orange in color. It would be helpful to study the color wheel which gives the relations between the two sets of primary colors. Calling them "contrast filters" is a common but erroneous designation.

The following may be of help to you. http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Lab_And_Post_Production/Kodak_Filters/wrattten2.htm

I strongly disagree. Of course they are contrast filters. I think you are assuming contrast means the same as "contrast index" for the whole film but it doesn't. There is no law of physics or sensitometry saying it does.
If you alter the tone between two adjacent tones then you have altered their contrast relative to one another. This is indisputable. Well only the occasional person would try and dispute it (probably based on some misguided asssumptions about terminology/context usage).

Doremus Scudder · Jun 9, 2015

A couple of things.

First, to the OP: A Wratten 21 orange filter is going to be hard to find. You may be better off with a #23 light red filter; much the same effect, but just a bit stronger, and much more easily available. The next choice would be to go down to the #15 orange - less strong but more effect than the #12 yellow filter. The cuts on the three filters are as follows: #15 520mn+, #21 540nm+, #23 570nm+. They have rather sharp curves, rising from 0% to almost 100% transmission within 50-60nm.

A conversion filter like the 85s have a gradually rising curve that starts at about 385nm but still passes about half of the green light (transmission is 50% at 550nm, whereas a 21 or 23 filter is going to cut almost all of this wavelength out). However, it might be worth a try if you have one lying around. You'll have to test yourself to see if the results are what you need.

B+W filters 040 and 041 equate to Wratten #16 and #22 respectively. You might be able to find one of them running around...

As for Series VI... I converted all my Series VI to more modern mm sizes with step-up rings. You may be able to more easily find a larger filter in a color you can use and use it on your Series VI adapter with a step-up ring.

Now to "Reciprocity Failure." Actually, this is correct. The "Reciprocity Effect," or better, "Reciprocity Law" is the characteristic of film to render a certain amount of density for any reciprocally equal amount of exposure (expressed as "time x intensity"). I.e., 1/4 second at f/32 = 1/8 second at f/22 = 1/15 sec. at f/ 16 and so on. The exposure factors of time and intensity are reciprocal; as one increases, the other decreases proportionally. Film reacts this way over a wide exposure range. The failure of this effect at longer and shorter times is the "Failure of the Reciprocity Law," or, to be more concise, "Reciprocity (Law) Failure."

And, with all due respect to Gerald, the term "contrast filters" for black-and-white photography has long been in use, by Kodak, in the Wratten literature, etc., etc. They change the "relative contrast" of the rendering of different colors by blocking some more than others. Mostly, the term was used to differentiate filters used in general photography to change the distribution of tones in a scene from more specialized filters like filters for making color separation negatives, etc. That's fine with me.

Best,

Doremus

RobC · Jun 9, 2015

I rekon B+W 040 is closest to #21 according to the charts I'm looking at. The cut off of 041 is a tad higher and a tad sharper but there's not much in it.

But I'm looking at current wratten curves and an old B+W catalogue. You would need to see current B+W catalogue.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 10, 2015

RobC said:
I rekon B+W 040 is closest to #21 according to the charts I'm looking at. The cut off of 041 is a tad higher and a tad sharper but there's not much in it.

But I'm looking at current wratten curves and an old B+W catalogue. You would need to see current B+W catalogue.

at Photokina B&W always made a big deal ou of their catalogs and rarely gave them away for free

RobC · Jun 10, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
at Photokina B&W always made a big deal ou of their catalogs and rarely gave them away for free

You can get a PDF one at http://www.bpluswfilters.co.uk/Footer/REQUEST+A+CATALOGUE/

And what I think is the older one at http://www.aifo.se/bwf/pdf/BW_filter_handbook_18557.pdf

Denverdad · Jun 10, 2015

For what it's worth, I noticed that there is a series-VI "Vivitar 21 Orange" filter listed for sale on this page, about halfway down.
Just passing that along.

Jeff

John Koehrer · Jun 10, 2015

Denverdad said:
For what it's worth, I noticed that there is a series-VI "Vivitar 21 Orange" filter listed for sale on this page, about halfway down.
Just passing that along.
Jeff

That looks like a mighty fine resource

Monday317 · Jun 10, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
They all have their own specific spectral transmission. Therefore, the answer must be 'No' unless you specify how much deviation you're willing to accept. To me, the std filter set is yellow #8, green #11, orange #15, and red#25, and there is a big difference between red an orange. Some of the filters you mentioned are closer to red than to orange. There is an older Kodak publication on Wratten filters out there that shows all the data and detail about the individual filters. I suggest you get hold of a used copy

Thanks Ralphie-Boy (said in my best Ed Norton voice of course... ),
I'd love to know WTF use a green filter is; I know a lot of people carry them, but don't see the need myself; not knocking you, either. Maybe I will get enlightened by the illuminati hereaboots!

I based my orange need on the old Wratten numbers and have already latched onto a Series VI #21; looks great. Now for a red #25 and the blue-green #47 to render pan film like ortho; want to see what the Tessar does with it. Still a decent, affordable selection of Series VI to be found, just takes a little digging about.

Doremus Scudder · Jun 12, 2015

Monday317 said:
...
I'd love to know WTF use a green filter is; I know a lot of people carry them, but don't see the need myself; not knocking you, either. Maybe I will get enlightened by the illuminati hereaboots!

I based my orange need on the old Wratten numbers and have already latched onto a Series VI #21; looks great. Now for a red #25 and the blue-green #47 to render pan film like ortho; want to see what the Tessar does with it. Still a decent, affordable selection of Series VI to be found, just takes a little digging about.

I use a green filter to darken red rocks in the US SW, to lighten foliage and to darken red in architectural shots when there would otherwise be a merger of tones; plus anytime I need to lighten green and darken the complimentary color(s). A green filter will often darken skies and lighten foliage at the same time, something yellow and orange won't do as well.

Just FYI, a Wratten #47 is a blue filter and will render pan film blue-sensitive (like the earliest emulsions). For the ortho look, you really need a #44 or 44A, although I've had reasonably good results with an 80B, which passes more green than the #47, (which passes none).

Best,

Doremus

nworth · Jun 12, 2015

I actually tried using an 85B instead of an orange filter. it doesn't work; if fact, it has remarkably little effect. There are plenty of orange filters out there from Hoya, B&K, Lee, and others. They may not match the Wratten #21 exactly, but they are genuinely orange. The problem may be the series 6 size (unthreaded), although you may be able to find a filter that will screw into a series 6 adapter.

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