Wow...using FB paper is a different experience for sure!

Helinophoto · Oct 12, 2016

baachitraka said:
I get it flat when kept under books for few days. Adox MCC 110 is my paper. But I don't dry it completely before putting them under the books.

I tried that too, not completely dry papers.
- They got stuck to the books/blotting paper =D
(No, they weren't wet, just not completely dry, somehow they stuck to everything then).

Tried foma, ilford and slavic FB, same issues with every one of them.
Sad really, I like the papers and the tone and properties, but when I cannot get the prints flat, it defeats the whole purpose :/

Lachlan Young · Oct 12, 2016

Helinophoto said:
I tried that too, not completely dry papers.
- They got stuck to the books/blotting paper =D
(No, they weren't wet, just not completely dry, somehow they stuck to everything then).

Tried foma, ilford and slavic FB, same issues with every one of them.
Sad really, I like the papers and the tone and properties, but when I cannot get the prints flat, it defeats the whole purpose :/

Get a piece of glass/ perspex a little bigger than the sheet you are printing on & some gummed tape - tape the print on to the glass (face up) & the print will dry as tight as a drum if you do it right. Obviously you lose some paper area from trimming the dry print out of the tape, but it's a startlingly easy way to get flat prints if you don't have a proper/ large enough dry mount press.

mooseontheloose · Oct 12, 2016

rpavich said:
First, the emulsion side isn't obvious (don't ask me how I know that) but the feel of it is so different and when it's dunked into the chems that was a shock also...it went limp!

When I took darkroom classes we were taught to touch the edge of the paper to our bottom lip. If it stuck, that was the emulsion side. If it didn't, well, it wasn't.
(I still do this when I get distracted or am not sure, depending on the paper).

mnemosyne · Oct 12, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
Get a piece of glass/ perspex a little bigger than the sheet you are printing on & some gummed tape - tape the print on to the glass (face up) & the print will dry as tight as a drum if you do it right. Obviously you lose some paper area from trimming the dry print out of the tape, but it's a startlingly easy way to get flat prints if you don't have a proper/ large enough dry mount press.

Or use Scotch removable tape and you don't even have to trim the dry print. Also, it doesn't have to be glass, any flat, clean surface like a resin coated wooden shelf/chipboard will work as well or even better (my impression is that surfaces that are ever so slighlty rough/textured are preferrable to ones that are perfectly smooth like glass).

xtolsniffer · Oct 12, 2016

I love FB, but I use RC. I occasionally print another FB just to remind myself of what it's like then go back to RC. My reasons (and these are purely personal) are:

1. Cost. RC is a bit cheaper, and warmtone is about the same price as the normal emulsion (this is Ilford multigrade). FB is about 50% more expensive for the normal emulsion and 100% more expensive for warmtone. I print a lot at 12"x16" and by the time you've got a decent size test strip, a work print and a couple of final prints, that's a fair bit of cash.
2. Flatness. At 12"x16", my normal easel bangs against the column of the enlarger and even then I can't get the full image onto the print, so I have to use a really cheap easel with a thinner margin that is not great at holding the paper flat, or just lay the paper on the baseboard. I find FB curls up at the edges, even under the easel, while RC lays completely flat.
3. Washing. RC washes and dries much faster. As I have to pack away everything after a darkroom session, the speed of washing and drying helps.
4. Flatness (again). I've tried most suggestions as to how to get FB to dry flat. Some sort of work for me, but there is always a wrinkle left that makes it hard to mount properly.

None of these are deal-breakers and can be overcome, and in the hand, you can't beat the feel of a FB print, it's crafted, not made. RC still feels a little plasticky, but I've printed up the same image in both FB gloss and RC pearl and put them both behind glass and I find it very hard to tell them apart, and I know what I'm looking at. So on balance, RC works for me. Not a great fan of RC gloss though, but that's personal too. Thank goodness we have all these options.

naaldvoerder · Oct 12, 2016

mnemosyne said:
Or use Scotch removable tape and you don't even have to trim the dry print. Also, it doesn't have to be glass, any flat, clean surface like a resin coated wooden shelf/chipboard will work as well or even better (my impression is that surfaces that are ever so slighlty rough/textured are preferrable to ones that are perfectly smooth like glass).

This is interesting! Can you remove the tape without residue? And upto what paper size did you use this method with? And with what margins under the tape? Thx.

Ko.Fe. · Oct 12, 2016

Yep, same thing happen with me. Started with RC, wowed after trying FB.
Printing of plastic or on paper. Have no idea why this huge difference is invisible for some.
The reasons why I have to use plastic is quick and economical washing. The reason why I don't like plastic RC paper is because it is not archival media.

mnemosyne · Oct 12, 2016

naaldvoerder said:
This is interesting! Can you remove the tape without residue? And upto what paper size did you use this method with? And with what margins under the tape? Thx.

I have used this successfully up to 10x12 inch. I haven't tried it with larger formats, as I don't print that large on FB paper. The tape may leave a very fine residue on the margins of the print (not visible, but palpable) that can be gently rubbed off with a soft cloth after drying. IDK about the exact archival properties of the tape or the adhesive. It is designated as "photo safe" and all I can say is that it has been good enough for me. Maybe it's best if I describe the whole procedure:

The print must not be dripping wet! Use a soft sponge to carefully remove any traces of residual water from the surface and back of the print; then I simply stick the print to a clean resin coated chipboard (standin upright). I use the sponge to apply a bit of pressure with a wiping movement and make sure the print sticks evenly to the surface of the board. Then I carefully wipe dry with a cloth the area of the board next to the print where the tape will be positioned. I use four strips of tape along the four sides to fix the print to the board; the tape will overlap the print about 5 to 10 mm in the margin area (total width of tape ca. 20mm). The tape is not made to glue wet stuff, it will stay in place on the dry, smooth surface of the board, but the part that overlaps with the wet print will eventually (during the drying process) losen and peel off all by itself from the paper surface. Don't worry, the print is still "framed" and held in position by the surrounding tape. It will stay where it is and dry evenly flat. After drying (I usually wait to the next day), just pull off the tape. I should add that the place where I dry my prints normally has 50-60% relative humidty. It might not work as well in a place with dry air.

naaldvoerder · Oct 12, 2016

Thx for that

Terry Breedlove · Oct 12, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
When I took darkroom classes we were taught to touch the edge of the paper to our bottom lip. If it stuck, that was the emulsion side. If it didn't, well, it wasn't.
(I still do this when I get distracted or am not sure, depending on the paper).

I will have to remember this.

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 12, 2016

I love FB paper and have been using it for decades. Due to the California drought, I had to wash my prints with an archival print washer. RC paper is so much simpler. I thought I had to give it up and print with RC paper

mnemosyne · Nov 17, 2017

mnemosyne said:
I have used this successfully up to 10x12 inch. I haven't tried it with larger formats, as I don't print that large on FB paper. The tape may leave a very fine residue on the margins of the print (not visible, but palpable) that can be gently rubbed off with a soft cloth after drying. IDK about the exact archival properties of the tape or the adhesive. It is designated as "photo safe" and all I can say is that it has been good enough for me. Maybe it's best if I describe the whole procedure:

The print must not be dripping wet! Use a soft sponge to carefully remove any traces of residual water from the surface and back of the print; then I simply stick the print to a clean resin coated chipboard (standin upright). I use the sponge to apply a bit of pressure with a wiping movement and make sure the print sticks evenly to the surface of the board. Then I carefully wipe dry with a cloth the area of the board next to the print where the tape will be positioned. I use four strips of tape along the four sides to fix the print to the board; the tape will overlap the print about 5 to 10 mm in the margin area (total width of tape ca. 20mm). The tape is not made to glue wet stuff, it will stay in place on the dry, smooth surface of the board, but the part that overlaps with the wet print will eventually (during the drying process) losen and peel off all by itself from the paper surface. Don't worry, the print is still "framed" and held in position by the surrounding tape. It will stay where it is and dry evenly flat. After drying (I usually wait to the next day), just pull off the tape. I should add that the place where I dry my prints normally has 50-60% relative humidty. It might not work as well in a place with dry air.

The pictures illustrate the process described above, or rather the results the next morning. The removable tape has peeled off the surface of the print, only sticking to the board and thereby more or less "framing" the print.
It is a 10x12 inch print, paper is Slavich Bromportrait double weight

Tony-S · Nov 17, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Once you go fibre, there's no turning back!

RC for the darkroom, fibre for the diet!

darkroommike · Nov 17, 2017

mooseontheloose said:
When I took darkroom classes we were taught to touch the edge of the paper to our bottom lip. If it stuck, that was the emulsion side. If it didn't, well, it wasn't.
(I still do this when I get distracted or am not sure, depending on the paper).

You know those old papers had a lot of heavy metals in the emulsions, don't you? Things like cadmium, etc.

Sirius Glass · Nov 17, 2017

I started with fiber paper many decades ago. About ten years ago I tried RC paper. Both have their uses but I prefer fiber paper for most finished projects.

Svenedin · Nov 18, 2017

Tony-S said:
RC for the darkroom, fibre for the diet!

RC for water conservation. A very important consideration if one has a water meter and has to pay for every last drop.

M Carter · Nov 18, 2017

Just a note to the OP - if you print fiber, Residual Hypo Test is very handy to have. One bottle lasts for years, and it takes all the guesswork out of wash times (why wash for an hour if the paper is clean in 40 mins?)

pentaxuser · Nov 18, 2017

darkroommike said:
You know those old papers had a lot of heavy metals in the emulsions, don't you? Things like cadmium, etc.

Isn't it the weight in heavy metals that give FB its "gravitas" and also stiffness when dry or am I confusing these heavy metals with bodily "stiffness" that has resulted in the kind of "stiffs" that Micky Spillane dealt with.

Micky incidentally was one of our species that I referred to as being especially destructive in the thread on punching holes in negatives. He delighted in recounting incidents in which holes were punched in negatives as mentioned in said thread. The trouble was that the hole came from using a 38 and resulted in making whomsoever was holding the negative at the time "stiff".

Sometimes I have to share my thoughts and before you ask, it is only 4:45pm in the U.K. and my libation as Mr Landau referred to it in "North By North West" has been nothing stronger than "English Breakfast" tea

pentaxuser

Bob Carnie · Nov 18, 2017

one mistake that most people make is touching the back of a fibre print or the front for that matter, it seems to be human nature, but it does create dimples like cottage cheese on dry prints that are impossible to flatten out.

A sample visual of what cottage cheese looks like would be the image Eric Rose posted of him in a stream with chaps on... those dimples are what I am talking about..

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
one mistake that most people make is touching the back of a fibre print or the front for that matter, it seems to be human nature, but it does create dimples like cottage cheese on dry prints that are impossible to flatten out.

A sample visual of what cottage cheese looks like would be the image Eric Rose posted of him in a stream with chaps on... those dimples are what I am talking about..

Ah yes, his cheeks had the blush of roses.

Bob Carnie · Nov 18, 2017

It looked pretty cold in that stream, I think mine would blush.

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2017

We should repost the photograph with a NSFW for the newer members.

Bob Carnie · Nov 18, 2017

We need to respect Erics wishes, he may have changed in the years since.... once on the internet though it never goes away

Sirius Glass · Nov 18, 2017

Bob Carnie said:
We need to respect Erics wishes, he may have changed in the years since.... once on the internet though it never goes away

Yeah he could be wearing big boy pants now.

darkroommike · Nov 18, 2017

pentaxuser said:
Isn't it the weight in heavy metals that give FB its "gravitas" and also stiffness when dry or am I confusing these heavy metals with bodily "stiffness" that has resulted in the kind of "stiffs" that Micky Spillane dealt with.

Micky incidentally was one of our species that I referred to as being especially destructive in the thread on punching holes in negatives. He delighted in recounting incidents in which holes were punched in negatives as mentioned in said thread. The trouble was that the hole came from using a 38 and resulted in making whomsoever was holding the negative at the time "stiff".

Sometimes I have to share my thoughts and before you ask, it is only 4:45pm in the U.K. and my libation as Mr Landau referred to it in "North By North West" has been nothing stronger than "English Breakfast" tea

pentaxuser

Not so much. The heavy metals are there for the effect these substances had on the emulsion. Help, help, PE, Ian, anybody! The other weight you refer to is caused by the exact way that particular paper was made, how it was coated with bartya, how is was rolled and the weight of the paper, not all double weight papers are created equal.

Wow...using FB paper is a different experience for sure!

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