Would you buy the new Fuji Range Finder?

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 3, 2008

Andy K said:
Tomatoes tomaytoes. You call it NRE, I call it tooling.

Regardless of what you wish to call it, engineering costs and tooling costs are two TOTALLY different things. They most certainly are NOT the same thing.

Fuji has already paid the engineering costs of designing and building these prototypes. Until/unless they proceed with high volume production, their tooling costs are $0.

Kerry

Andy K · Feb 3, 2008

As I said, tomatoes tomaytoes.

Btw, a CNC milling machine is a tool, setting it up has a cost.

amicusfelix · Feb 3, 2008

New Fuji Rangefinder

Wow. Where's the signup list?

I stupidly let a Plaubel 6x7 pass through my hands twenty years ago after only a short visit, a move I've often regretted. A folding rangefinder is so incredibly useful because it's possible to always have it close at hand. Would be lovely if it were to finish as a 6x9 rather than a 6x7 but that's picking nits.

mikebarger · Feb 3, 2008

Sure are a lot of great priced used cameras on the market for me to spend money on a new one.

Mike

Early Riser · Feb 3, 2008

On one hand I'd want it because it's a very cool camera, on the other hand I already have a Mamiya 7II system and can't see the point given that the mamiya also gives me the choice of lenses and realistically isn't that much bigger.

If they made a 6x9 system with interchangeable lenses, I buy the whole system in a second.

Andy K · Feb 3, 2008

The way I see it, I have 35mm SLR and RF. With this camera I would also have MF SLR and RF.

nsurit · Feb 3, 2008

Hmm, I don't know. Let me check with my Bessa II and and Bessa RF and see how they would feel about some company.

Andrey · Feb 3, 2008

Andy K said:
Andrey, This looks to be a high grade folder, possibly on an aluminium chassis, who knows what the top and bottom plates are made of, brass, titanium? I very much doubt it'll be a 'plastic box'.

Fuji put titanium on it? no way.

Brass and aluminum - the easiest metals to mill? That adds cost?

Think about it this way. Cars are sold for 15 grand. It takes about 10K to make them. How much would a camera cost?

eclarke · Feb 3, 2008

Andrey said:
Fuji put titanium on it? no way.

Brass and aluminum - the easiest metals to mill? That adds cost?

Think about it this way. Cars are sold for 15 grand. It takes about 10K to make them. How much would a camera cost?

What is your occupation and how do you justify the subsequent prices for your service??...EC

eclarke · Feb 3, 2008

Andy K said:
Tomatoes tomaytoes. You call it NRE, I call it tooling.

PLUS, no business is in the hunt to just recover their costs. Price is based on whether or not you want it and whether or not Fuji has it...EC

Andrey · Feb 3, 2008

eclarke said:
What is your occupation and how do you justify the subsequent prices for your service??...EC

Cell and molecular biology.

Prices for my service... when people need my services, I'm a specialist and the services are priced accordingly.

I see what you're getting at.

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 3, 2008

Andy K said:
As I said, tomatoes tomaytoes.

I think we're just going to have to disagree on this. As someone who has worked in an R&D lab that's produced many prototypes over the last two decades, I can assure you we have never spent a penny on tooling costs to make any of those prototypes. Tooling costs were never spent until a product group took one of those prototypes and decided to go into volume production.

Andy K said:
Btw, a CNC milling machine is a tool, setting it up has a cost.

Yes, but it's a general purpose tool, not a dedicated, custom-built tooling fixture for this specific design. I seriously doubt Fuji went out and bought a new CNC machine just to build a hand full of prototypes. Back to my Keith Canham example. He doesn't own any of the CNC machines that make the parts for his cameras. He farms the work out to local machine shops and he pays for the materials and machine time when the parts are actually produced. He has no up front costs for generating dedicated tooling to build his cameras.

And the CNC set-up costs for building a handful of prototypes is on the order of a few hundred dollars, not $100,000.

Again, my original point is that Fuji has spent money producing these prototypes, but that money was spent on the design of the prototypes, not the tooling that may be required to go into volume production. The best way to recoup the engineering costs they've already spent would be to go into volume production and amortize those costs over XXXX number of units.

Of course, that assumes they can produce the units at a low enough cost to sell enough and make enough of a profit to make it worth their while. As they have made similar products in the past, I think they can. What they are doing right now by showing the prototype is determining demand. So far, the interest seems to be substantial. Let's hope it's enough for them to proceed with volume production.

Kerry

Andy K · Feb 3, 2008

I don't think Fuji would be looking for a profit on this camera. They make enough from their digital cameras and their film lines that they can produce this camera in limited batches and make up any losses elsewhere in their business. I think this camera will be a 'kudos' product. Something that gets people talking about, and praising Fuji.

Steve Smith · Feb 3, 2008

Andy K said:
I think this camera will be a 'kudos' product. Something that gets people talking about, and praising Fuji.

I agree with Andy on this. We are already doing the talking and praising!

Steve.

JBrunner · Feb 4, 2008

Many costs are buit in to a product before it gets into your hands, far more than just R&D, and tooling. In addition, there are also production, material, administrative , packaging , liability, legal, promotion, advertising ,shipping and delivery, customs, tarriffs, tax, wholesale markups, retail markups, and about two dozon other nickels amd dimes not worth going into, and most importantly, you want to make a profit. All these things get into the price of a product, before it gets to you. Then the price has to hit a sweet spot, looking for the highest volume at the best profit margin. Hopefully, (considering the gutted dollar, don't forget a dollars worth about fifty cents now.), the camera could come in under 1k.

It's easy to armchair and say that it shouldn't cost more than $80 for Fuji to make this camera. Easy, but not lucid.

vdonovan · Feb 4, 2008

I think they want to put out a machine that will make as many camera nuts as possible burn as much film as possible. For that reason I bet they will sell it at a reasonable price, even at a loss. I'm personally hoping for a $400-500 price point. Note to Fuji: that price will cause THIS camera nut to burn LOTS of Fuji film.

Greg_E · Feb 4, 2008

Maybe they should give it away for free if you buy a certain amount of film from them?

Steve Smith · Feb 4, 2008

Greg_E said:
Maybe they should give it away for free if you buy a certain amount of film from them?

A bit like putting a free spoon in every box of cornflakes!

I'll have a large box of Fuji Emulsionflakes please.

Steve.

Lee Shively · Feb 4, 2008

It's the way ink jet printer makers do business. They lose money on the printers and make a mint on the ink. But film is not proprietary to Fuji so I doubt that concept will work for them.

Andrey · Feb 4, 2008

JBrunner said:
It's easy to armchair and say that it shouldn't cost more than $80 for Fuji to make this camera. Easy, but not lucid.

I was saying to make. I didn't say that fuji should sell it for 80.

There's another 80 bucks in advertising per camera. Packaging is cheap, because it runs in thousands.

But it's not a LOSS product.

david b · Feb 4, 2008

I really do not see this camera being sold for $500. That would be amazing as I would probably buy a chrome and a black camera.

But I think a more realistic price will be somewhere between $1000 and $1500.

I am sure they have their eyes on the used markets so pricing will have to be realistic.

Maybe the camera will come with a few rolls of film?

JBrunner · Feb 4, 2008

Andrey said:
I was saying to make. I didn't say that fuji should sell it for 80.

There's another 80 bucks in advertising per camera. Packaging is cheap, because it runs in thousands.

But it's not a LOSS product.

Producing packaging is cheap (relative of course), because of volume, but designing, and setting up packaging isn't ( again, relative). I have brought products to market. There are economies of scale, but to achieve those economies requires substantial investment. I doubt Fuji will sell a million of these cameras. It would be neat if they sell many thousands. At that scale the camera won't be as cost effective as a camera that sells a million units, as many DSLR bodies regularly approach, and the price per unit will reflect that lack of scale, and the margin needed to turn a profit. What the profit margin will be is up to Fuji, and will determine to some extent the number of units sold.

pauliej · Feb 4, 2008

I agree with Jason. Fuji is in business to make a profit, on EVERY item they make (just like Kodak, Ilford, etal). This cam, if produced, will NOT be a loss leader. Everyone hopes it will be priced similar to a Holga, but with HIGH QUALITY Fuji optics, and other high price/low volume issues, I think it will be priced more like a Mamiya 7 and similar equipment. Less than $2K, I doubt it. But I sure hope I am wrong...

Paul

keithwms · Feb 4, 2008

Just for comparison, the newer bessas are selling in the thousands, right? Not in the millions. And even then, the prices are sub $1000. So people at Cosina do know how to make the finances work. And frankly I don't think the cosina products are shabby. Big difference between a bessa and a holga in terms of quality, but actually not that much difference in price if you think about it!

It'd be cool if there were some sort of camera/film package deal that Fuji could construct. Easy to arrange: they give you a 20% discount on Fuji film for one year after the purchase of the camera; or they simply charge you $1500 upfront and that includes $500 worth of film. I think this is precisely what cameramakers should be doing- helping us help them.

david b · Feb 4, 2008

Keep in mind that Mamiya prices are much higher here (USA) do you some weird arrangement with MAC.

If Fuji prices this camera more than $2000, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot.

Would you buy the new Fuji Range Finder?

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