Would moisture on a film do this?

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

Hey Folks,
Time for the Film Photography Helpdesk to spring into action.

Tonight I have been looking (and scanning, but this is actually very irrelevant to what is happening here) at some negatives and have found an issue with one roll of film. Looking at the negatives, I have tiny dark dots. These dots are most apparent on the mid tone areas. They are not at all visible on the rebate and spaces, so its not really a residue. Below are some quick zoomed in examples.

This is it as you would see it on the negative:

Below is an inversion, so the final image will appear as white spots:

I had this happen a few years ago, which I could never work out either.

I also had another roll processed in the same tank at the same time and this looks fine (but I have yet to put it through the scanner).

Could this possibly be caused from poorly stored or thawed film and moisture? I know I have a tendency to take film in and out of the fridge - I.E., when I go out for a shoot, I'll pull some rolls out of the fridge. When I'm done for the day, the left overs are put back. Could this routine be causing moisture to form? Or could it be something else?

BTW, this film is Ilford FP4+

Cheers

mnemosyne · Mar 22, 2018

120 film, I assume?

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

Yes, 120.

The film is 120 FP4+ shot as 6x6, processed in D76 1:1

zanxion72 · Mar 22, 2018

Looks like impurities. It can be from the water or the dissolved developer. I got used to filtering the development solution prior to using it.

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

zanxion72 said:
Looks like impurities. It can be from the water or the dissolved developer. I got used to filtering the development solution prior to using it.

If it was impurities, I'd expect the second roll that was processed in the tank at the same time to be like that.

I've just scanned some of the second film and it seems to be OK (its actually hard to tell, as it was photographed on dry grass):

mnemosyne · Mar 22, 2018

I had exactly the same problem with FP4+ in 120 (roll a couple of months beyond "process before" date). The roll was exposed on relatively warm day and then stored in a fridge for a couple of days before development. My guess at the time was that the problem was moisture related, maybe some kind of interaction between backing paper and film caused by condensation. I do not have a definite answer, but since this happened to me I stopped storing exposed 120 rolls in the fridge and have not encountered it again.

Ces1um · Mar 22, 2018

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/spots-on-negatives.140937/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/black-spots-on-pan-f-120-cause.79765/print

seems like impurities or using household soap instead of photoflo were the general consensus for spots like yours in the above two threads.

zanxion72 · Mar 22, 2018

hoffy said:
If it was impurities, I'd expect the second roll that was processed in the tank at the same time to be like that.

I've just scanned some of the second film and it seems to be OK (its actually hard to tell, as it was photographed on dry grass):
View attachment 197337

Sometimes, when you develop multiple films in the same tank and especially with rotation instead of inversion, you may get most of the impurities at the lower portion of the tank. Do you invert, or rotate the tank during development?

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

Ces1um said:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/spots-on-negatives.140937/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/black-spots-on-pan-f-120-cause.79765/print

seems like impurities or using household soap instead of photoflo were the general consensus for spots like yours in the above two threads.

OK, still a little uncertain in regards to impurities.

As for wetting agent, I'm using photoflo. The bottle is probably 2 1/2 years old. I did have an issue, though, with foaming, which I put down as residue on the reels. I have put them through the dish washer and this seems to have gone away. I just can't remember if that was before or after these were processed!

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

zanxion72 said:
Sometimes, when you develop multiple films in the same tank and especially with rotation instead of inversion, you may get most of the impurities at the lower portion of the tank. Do you invert, or rotate the tank during development?

Definitely were processed using inversions!

Michael W · Mar 22, 2018

It looks like the Pan F spots, which I have had, and which has nothing to do with impurities, soap etc. It's a film defect but Ilford wren't able to explain it - I sent them the affected roll. Shame to see it on FP4. I solved the problem by never using Pan F again.

AgX · Mar 22, 2018

Most explanations above do not explain why the rebates are not effected.
Thus likely your artefact is somewhat silver related.

hoffy · Mar 22, 2018

Interestingly, the effected roll looks under exposed.

zanxion72 · Mar 22, 2018

hoffy said:
Definitely were processed using inversions!

Then it is definitely defect of the emulsion. It could be humidity if the film was not well sealed when bringing it to room temperature.

glbeas · Mar 22, 2018

It looks a lot like fungus growing in the emulsion.

mnemosyne · Mar 22, 2018

This is what it looked like in my case (FP4+ 120, developed in Xtol 1+3, inversion by agitation, final rinse: Photoflo).

My notes tell me that I had experienced some heavy foaming when developing this roll. This is something I had on and off with Harman production films and Xtol. The only remedy I found for the foaming problem is to give the film a thorough pre-rinse (3 water changes). But I don't think this is related to the problem in discussion here.

Just to clarify, what you see is not some kind of deposit on the film from soap or whatever, it is certainly contained within the emulsion after processing and appears black

Sirius Glass · Mar 22, 2018

Instead of diluting the XTOL use it stock and see if the problem goes away.

mnemosyne · Mar 22, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Instead of diluting the XTOL use it stock and see if the problem goes away.

The OP wrote that he used D76 1+1 and he got the same spots, so I do not see how this should be related to my use of Xtol. Anyway, as I wrote above, the problem is long solved, it went away after I stopped putting exposed 120 film in the fridge. Or maybe it was just coincidence an it was a case of bad film, as someone suggested. Not complaining that Harman did something wrong as the film was already a couple of months over its "best by" date.

Sirius Glass · Mar 22, 2018

I only put exposed film in the refrigerator if and only if I can have it in low relative humidity ]or desiccate the film] and seal it in a plastic bag.

Would moisture on a film do this?

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