Would Jock Sturges be arrested/hassled today?

Monophoto said:

The other question is can the man make photographs of anything other than nude figures in the environment? I have nothing against nude figures in the environment, but it seems to me that if he is the consummate photographer that he would like us to believe that he is, he would have a broader body of work.

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I too have a problem with this statement.

It seems you define greatness as being a "consumate" photographer. I guess meaning that he should shoot, what, weddings, flowers, landscapes, Amish colonies.

Not to be too flippant but having a narrow "focus" on what a photographer likes to shoot, and is good at, seems to me to be justifyable criteria for greatness. I'm not saying that Sturges is great or not but why can a "specialist" be as highly regarded as someone who covers the gamit.

Michael

I'd love to see the reactions on APUG to an unknown Sally Mann, unknown Diane Arbus, unknown Robert Mapplethorpe...or even, to take provocative subject matter off the table, an unknown Man Ray.

You know what I think, I think there are some excellent photographers contributing to the galleries on APUG and more than a few poor ones. Many of the poor ones are people with limited skills working hard to improve. Some of them will and some of them have something unique and interesting to offer. Some of the poor ones are skillful but have nothing at all to say, visually. Some of those people are entirely absorbed in the mechanics of photography because that's all they've got. All this artsy-fartsy navel gazing goes right over their heads. Some of these philistines couldn't open their minds far enough to get their heads around some of these concepts if we brought in the jaws of life.

To some people, I'm a poor photographer with no skill and/or nothing to say. You know what? My skin is thick enough to hear that. You know why? Because I know the difference between a community that is hostile to me (and this community isn't) and the opinions of a few individuals. If I post to the critique gallery then I am asking for feedback. I have little to say about the form of that feedback. Sometimes the feedback will be uninformed and if I recognize that, how much weight do I give it? Sometimes it will be clumsy or rude. I may or may not choose to glean any wisdom wrapped in the rudeness depending on my tolerance for the abuse but I'm sure not going to let someone else's lack of courtesy or inability to treat people or work with respect affect *my* self-esteem.

The little kerfuffle that's been going on lately is so familiar to any of us that have spent any time in on-line communities. The meta-dynamics are not unique to APUG or any photography forums. This noise is archetypal on the Intertubes. They're not worth fighting over. People will get huffy and leave...often they will be people we wish would stay...sometimes they will speechify before they go...some will advise them not to let the "front door hit them on the backside." Nothing will cancel that series. It's in permanent syndication.

What is worth fighting about...or at least having a continual, civil dialogue about, is what kind of boundaries and what kinds of tools are desirable and undesirable in a commons where people with divergent frames of reference and contexts of various breadths wish to come together to talk about a common, yet broad range of related subjects.

I side with those that advocate more tools so that those that wish to protect themselves from that which they wish to avoid may do so...and with those that advocate for fewer rules so that those that wish to decide for themselves what's tolerable and what is not may do so.

It just so happens that Jock HAS done some very high quality work that isnt nudes. His work on school children of Ireland comes to mind, and its pretty damn good.

As to whether the lab tech was deciding that Sturges work was pornographic, since I cant read his mind I'll give him the benefit of the doubt (whether he deserves it or not). Perhaps the tech didnt have the benefit of seeing it in the context of Sturges body of work. Perhaps he didnt know whether the photographer was taking advantage of children or not and decided not to take the chance.

Wayne

billschwab said:

Sorry, but I find this statement ridiculous. A complete assumption on your part.

B.

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I was preparing to answer the same thing before I read your post, Bill.

jstraw said:

I'd love to see the reactions on APUG to an unknown Sally Mann, unknown Diane Arbus, unknown Robert Mapplethorpe...or even, to take provocative subject matter off the table, an unknown Man Ray.

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How about an unknown Joel-Peter Witkin ??? Hahahaha! This would be a feast...

George Papantoniou said:

How about an unknown Joel-Peter Witkin ??? Hahahaha! This would be a feast...

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We've already been through that exercise in nausea over on the LF Forum, and its nasty.

In Croatia, two days ago, police break into museum. Reason for breaking was one photograph of male child, aged about 13, naked, holding a flowers, which informer described as child pornography. This photograph is taken from series of three photograhs of same boy, holding fowers and jupming in front of camera. Police seizad all photographs of that photograher which museum have. Not only those three, but all. Photographer was not arrested (yet).

Whole art community in Croatia protested about police doing. They said, police was right to react when got information, but officers should know better. When they got into museum and saw photographs, they should in minute realised ot was misunderstanding, and leave. But, police decided different.

Photographer is established art photographer in Croatia.

Now, interesting part. Photographs were made in 1983. and were exhibited several times during the years. Now, more than 20 years after, police suddenly jumped...

Boy, who now have more than 30 years and working in marketing business, and is succesfull, when asked for comment only laughed and said it was stupid to do (police action). He wasn't abused, he don't feel misused and embaressed today, and wasn't felt misused when photographs were made.

Just example...

Please, wach movie called "Dirty pictures", James Woods in lead role, http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0217363/.

"The other question is can the man make photographs of anything other than nude figures in the environment? I have nothing against nude figures in the environment, but it seems to me that if he is the consummate photographer that he would like us to believe that he is, he would have a broader body of work."

That Karsh guy in Canada wasn't very good either, just portrait stuff. Same with Eugene Smith, just photojournalism stuff. You would think they could have taken an Ansel Adams workshop or something and done landscape photography as well!

WarEaglemtn said:

That Karsh guy in Canada wasn't very good either, just portrait stuff. Same with Eugene Smith, just photojournalism stuff. You would think they could have taken an Ansel Adams workshop or something and done landscape photography as well!

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I know exactly what you mean. Karsh flower pictures were appalling. Eugene Smith shot a wedding for a friend of mine and it was dark and depressing as hell.

Talk about your one trick ponies.


Michael

Addendum to my previous posts

Now, I have addendum to my previous post about that Croatian photographer.

Waching Croatioan TV (through cable), there is:

Police get into photographers apartement and take away ALL negatives and prints photographer had. Whole lifetime work of photographer was taken away. And who know how policewould treat those worksd, they can easily destroy in by mishanlding it.

And not only that. Also one Croatian historian of art, who prepares Croatian part of exhibition which will be (or already was) held in Czech Republic, with theme of akt (nude) photography is also under police investigation.

Irony is that this particular historian of ar WORKS FOR POLICE AS EXPERT for art when police is involved in criminal activities in art world...!!!!!

And both police actions were made after information by ANONYMUS informer.

It's a moot question, really. Mr. Sturges is alive and working today; as far as I know he still has the same subject matter and hasn't been arrested lately.

George Papantoniou said:

How about an unknown Joel-Peter Witkin ??? Hahahaha! This would be a feast...

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We've already seen it. Not Joel-Peter Witkin, but more somewhere in the lines of Mapplethorpe. But then again, I don't stick bullwhips up the rectums of my models either. The reaction was neither as pretty nor as ugly as one might have anticipated.

TheFlyingCamera said:

But then again, I don't stick bullwhips up the rectums of my models either. .

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I don't think I've ever met a model where I would even want to try. Or a model who would want me to...

He did great flower shots but can inspire homophobia even in the average liberal. As the old joke has it, "Rectum?" -- "Didn't do 'em any good."

To return to Sturgess, though, many of his best shots seem to me to be those where the little girls have their clothes ON.

Cheers,

R.

Roger- I always thought it was, "Rectum? It damn near killed 'em!"

You're probably right about Sturges, but the only ones non-connoisseurs remember are the naked ones.

MarkS said:

It's a moot question, really. Mr. Sturges is alive and working today; as far as I know he still has the same subject matter and hasn't been arrested lately.

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That's because he was, and is, on the up-and-up. No evidence of criminal activity was found. He was investigated, cleared, and has been left alone since, as far as I know.

I was doing some street shots today and the cutiest little girl came skipping down the street holding her mother's hand. She had a cape, crown and wand. I started to raise my camera and then the thought struck me that the parent does not know me and has no idea how that image would be used. I passed on the shot.

Yes, I think that under our current hysterical "security" alerts, amber "alerts" and overall sense of insecurity that a raid, conficastion of equipment and work is a real threat.

Bob

didn't mr sturges participate at and post photographs on photo,net a few months ago,
and he was asked to remove them? he wasn't arrested, but i am sure it was kind of a hassle ..